Uninspired Munis with Macdonald/Raynor style potential?

[Matthew Lloyd]

I'm curious about how many heavily-played munis on average pieces of land have the potential to be transformed into a dynamic Macdonald/Raynor style course with the right budget and creative commitment. Recent playing of Lido and Arcadia South got me thinking about this.


To take the idea out of the theoretical... for any of you that have played Raymond Memorial in Columbus, Ohio - it's a perfectly solid municipal course that gets a ton of play. The land itself is completely ordinary, and while the golf matches the greens fee, the bones of a great course do exist there with the right design and attention to detail.


I've also felt that Columbus is in great need of "better" public golf options - in terms of design and architectural merit. With city ownership it's of course highly unlikely a transformation like this could ever occur. But it seems to me that every golf-crazed city has a solid muni or two with potential to be transformed into something unique that would serve as counter-programming to everything else in the area.

[Mike Worth]

I don’t know the answer to your question about how many additional public courses could be turned into what you describe


I do, however, know that one exists already – – Charleston Municipal. I managed to play 9 holes walking yesterday during the short time when it wasn’t raining.


The renovation occurred during the pandemic. My understanding from speaking with club staff yesterday is they kept the same routing, but the renovation added bunkers and McDonald/Raynor template greens.


I will add the course played very firm and fast, even with a hurricane approaching

[Matt_Cohn]

What’s the part that would work? The focus on a few highly meaningful and simply shaped bunkers without the need for giant earthworks?

[Joe Zucker]

I assume Mount Prospect outside Chicago would be the template for this.  Redone about 10 years ago with the Raynor style and it is an excellent muni worth a visit if you're in the area.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Uninspired Munis with Macdonald/Raynor style potential?
I'm curious about how many heavily-played munis on average pieces of land have the potential to be transformed into a dynamic Macdonald/Raynor style course with the right budget and creative commitment.
Recent playing of Lido and Arcadia South...

From the two courses you list, all I can think of is sand. Lots and lots of sand. Sand as far as the eye can see. As far as I understand, sand makes great golf become great, cheap, maintenance-friendly golf.

[Stewart Abramson]

I'm curious about how many heavily-played munis on average pieces of land have the potential to be transformed into a dynamic Macdonald/Raynor style course with the right budget and creative commitment. Recent playing of Lido and Arcadia South got me thinking about this.

Hendricks Field in Belleville, NJ (just outside Newark) is an actual Mac/Raynor/Banks (Banks to be specific). It's a decent, but not great piece of land in an urban setting. The course was in poor shape for many years and they  finished a complete reno in 2022. It looks very good, but it is nothing like the Lido or Arcadia South. The course has the template par 3's and the  bunkers look like Mac/Raynor/Banks in style but all the features have been softened (some might say neutered) with a focus on pace of play for a very busy course whose customers have a wide range of skill levels. I'd call it MacRaynor-"Lite".  The course is extremely busy and very reasonably priced for residents.  Although I'm not sure what you mean by a "dynamic" Macdonald/Raynor style, this course is likely not what you had in mind. However, the course has been transformed for the better and it is perfect for it's purpose, which is to provide a nice course for the residents rather than attracting GCA nerds.  I've played there several times  as a single rounding out a fourball. Not one of the players I've been paired with had heard of Charles Banks or any of the templates. They appreciated the great conditions and low price.

Link to photos of Hendricks Field : https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157719721202390/





Hendricks Field #4







Hendricks Field #8









Hendricks Field #10







Hendricks Field #10







Hendricks Field #12 Biarritz green




[/size]Hendricks Field #15 principal's nose Hendricks Field #16  Hendricks Field #17 Eden par 3  [size=78%]

[Tom_Doak]

I did not know that one of the definitions of "dynamic" was "mindless mimicry".

[Ryan Book]

I think the acclaim for Charleston Municipal has at least temporarily fed the idea that MacRaynor is the ideal formula for redesigning municipal offerings. An important consideration, however, is that Raynor's importance to that city's great clubs made his influence both relevant and appropriate for designing for the city's blue-collar golfers. So, in your example ("our example," as I live in Columbus) it may be more appropriate for someone to design with Donald Ross in mind (a la Scioto and Columbus CC). Not as easy as a course designer who has a prepared grab-bag of templates, but hardly impossible. And, with a site such as Raymond (not a topgraphical masterpiece), the key to creating interesting golf will lie in interesting greens...something Ross was also capable of. 

I'm curious about how many heavily-played munis on average pieces of land have the potential to be transformed into a dynamic Macdonald/Raynor style course with the right budget and creative commitment. Recent playing of Lido and Arcadia South got me thinking about this.


To take the idea out of the theoretical... for any of you that have played Raymond Memorial in Columbus, Ohio - it's a perfectly solid municipal course that gets a ton of play. The land itself is completely ordinary, and while the golf matches the greens fee, the bones of a great course do exist there with the right design and attention to detail.


I've also felt that Columbus is in great need of "better" public golf options - in terms of design and architectural merit. With city ownership it's of course highly unlikely a transformation like this could ever occur. But it seems to me that every golf-crazed city has a solid muni or two with potential to be transformed into something unique that would serve as counter-programming to everything else in the area.

[Ronald Montesano]

Beaver Island State Park, on my home island in New York, is a William Harries tract. It is nondescript, flat as the flattest pancacke, and suffers only from drainage issues. Grand Island is a clay plug, except for the northeast portion, called Sandy Bay. BISP is on the southern end, so it is clay, clay, clay.

I spoke with one of the movers of NYS Parks and Rec a few years ago, at James Baird in Poughkeepsie. He indicated that he had heard about Beaver, but had not visited. BISP is lots of bunker-left-bunker-right in landing zone, followed by bunker-front-left-bunker-front-right at the green. Uninspired golf, that could be remedied without much investment.

Cases in point: the par three holes. Number three could be an Eden. Number six could be a Biarritz. Number thirteen could be a redan, and number seventeen nearly has the greensize to be a Short.