[John Kavanaugh]

Built today. How would it be ranked?


In the Sand Hills?


In the United Stares?


In the World?


It would be a tough debut in a saturated region.

[Jerry Kluger]

I would agree that it would be tough but anytime you are first and do it oh so well then anyone or anything that wants to say it is better must be so good that there is no question that it is better.  I had brought this up relative to Ballyneal which I think is fantastic but can I point to some thing(s) which make it clearly better - no.  Sand Hills opened the door for so many courses that may not have been built as the developer may not have seen the potential that was seen at Sand Hills.

[Joe Zucker]

I would be mildly surprised if the 13th hole could survive if it were built today.  To be frank, I'm surprised it's survived in it's current form to 2024.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I would be mildly surprised if the 13th hole could survive if it were built today.  To be frank, I'm surprised it's survived in it's current form to 2024.

I was at Sand Hills for a week 20 years ago. I could never hold the green on the par three 13th no matter what I did. By chance Bill Coore was there that week and I was introduced to him. I wanted to tell him that I hated 13. But thought of asking a different question. So I asked, “What kind of shot did you envision the player making on 13?” His reply was classic. “Well Tom, we just smoothed out the dirt and put grass seed down.”

[Tim Martin]

JK-Good to see you posting and with a Mucciesque thread title no less. Pat would be proud!

[Tommy Williamsen]

I will answer the question. Sand Hills would still be ranked high if it were built in the last few years. Its quality is undeniable.

[Steve Lapper]

Sand Hills is the very rare modern course that has near 18 unique and excellent holes, thus more than justifiably deserves its lofty ranking.


There are very few, if any, flaws there.

[John Kavanaugh]

I believe that in a blind taste test of golfers in their 30’s Landmand would beat Sand Hills 5 up with 4 to play.

[Daryl David]

I believe that in a blind taste test of golfers in their 30’s Landmand would beat Sand Hills 5 up with 4 to play.

What about Ballyneal?  Had Bally preceded SH, how would they rank now? 

[John Kavanaugh]

Ballyneal is the gold standard in the 30 something demo. The proximity to Denver puts it a tier above Landmand.

[John Kavanaugh]

I believe that in a blind taste test of golfers in their 30’s Landmand would beat Sand Hills 5 up with 4 to play.

What about Ballyneal?  Had Bally preceded SH, how would they rank now?

In alphabetical order.

[Jason Topp]

I would be mildly surprised if the 13th hole could survive if it were built today.  To be frank, I'm surprised it's survived in it's current form to 2024.

You need to hit it at the left edge of the green.  There is a bowl there.   It is a great hole that rewards those who figure out how to play it and execute a decent shot. 

[Stewart Abramson]

Ballyneal is the gold standard in the 30 something demo. The proximity to Denver puts it a tier above Landmand.

It's also the gold standard for this 70-something person

[Shane Wright]

I would be mildly surprised if the 13th hole could survive if it were built today.  To be frank, I'm surprised it's survived in it's current form to 2024.

You need to hit it at the left edge of the green.  There is a bowl there.   It is a great hole that rewards those who figure out how to play it and execute a decent shot.

AGREED. Everyone has different tastes.  But I have always thought 13 was one of the best holes on the course.  It's a stand out par 3 for me.  It requires more strategy than most par 3's and it's beautiful, hard, a half par hole, and a feat if you can par it.  I absolutely love it. 

[Kevin_Reilly]

Didn't Nick Faldo ace #13 in his one time playing the course? 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I believe that in a blind taste test of golfers in their 30’s Landmand would beat Sand Hills 5 up with 4 to play.

You don't think that 30 year old folks can discern greatness?

[Joe Zucker]

I would be mildly surprised if the 13th hole could survive if it were built today.  To be frank, I'm surprised it's survived in it's current form to 2024.

You need to hit it at the left edge of the green.  There is a bowl there.   It is a great hole that rewards those who figure out how to play it and execute a decent shot.

AGREED. Everyone has different tastes.  But I have always thought 13 was one of the best holes on the course.  It's a stand out par 3 for me.  It requires more strategy than most par 3's and it's beautiful, hard, a half par hole, and a feat if you can par it.  I absolutely love it.

I appreciate the response here. I played 4 rounds there with a scratch, a 2, a 7 and an 8 handicap.  In those 16 shots, 0 balls ended up on the green.  I can see that Jason is right that the bowl on the left will catch the call and allow it to hold the green.  I'd argue that area is far too small to expect a player to hit from 180-200 yards out. Especially on such a windy site.  I'm not sure how much strategy is really involved if you should aim for that left bowl regardless of where the pin is?


If it was built today, I wonder if it would be softened a bit.  Regardless, I agree it is a beautiful and natural hole.  I would not place it in the top holes on one of the best 3 courses I've every played, but that's a pretty high bar (and only my opinion)! 

Sand Hills has such a different vibe than Ballyneal or Dismal.  Us dreaded millenials may not have aged into the quiet confidence of Sand Hills yet. In that way, John is probably right that 30 year olds probably prefer Ballyneal.  Sand Hills probably wants it this way, anyways.

[John Kavanaugh]

I believe that in a blind taste test of golfers in their 30’s Landmand would beat Sand Hills 5 up with 4 to play.

You don't think that 30 year old folks can discern greatness?

Not at all. I believe that if I had the strength, wisdom and testosterone of a 30 year old I would clearly love Landman more. 30 year olds also never experienced the romance of Sand Hills when it was a mystical destination full of anonymous members. That’s all gone now.

[Ira Fishman]

I believe that in a blind taste test of golfers in their 30’s Landmand would beat Sand Hills 5 up with 4 to play.

You don't think that 30 year old folks can discern greatness?

Not at all. I believe that if I had the strength, wisdom and testosterone of a 30 year old I would clearly love Landman more. 30 year olds also never experienced the romance of Sand Hills when it was a mystical destination full of anonymous members. That’s all gone now.

JK,


Sand Hills is still a mystical destination for me at age 66. If you are a non-anonymous member, please let me join you one day!

[Ben Sims]

I believe that in a blind taste test of golfers in their 30’s Landmand would beat Sand Hills 5 up with 4 to play.

Can’t drive a cart blind.


Kidding aside there’s some interesting meat on that bone. Based on the topic on another thread, I bet you’re not far off. My brother called me two weeks ago to tell me he’d just played the best course he’s ever played at Atlanta Athletic Club. We spent four days at Old Barnwell in April and also played Palmetto that trip. But he’s my twin and he’s been wrong for 42 years. This is nothing new. 

[Jason Topp]

I would be mildly surprised if the 13th hole could survive if it were built today.  To be frank, I'm surprised it's survived in it's current form to 2024.

You need to hit it at the left edge of the green.  There is a bowl there.   It is a great hole that rewards those who figure out how to play it and execute a decent shot.

AGREED. Everyone has different tastes.  But I have always thought 13 was one of the best holes on the course.  It's a stand out par 3 for me.  It requires more strategy than most par 3's and it's beautiful, hard, a half par hole, and a feat if you can par it.  I absolutely love it.

I appreciate the response here. I played 4 rounds there with a scratch, a 2, a 7 and an 8 handicap.  In those 16 shots, 0 balls ended up on the green.  I can see that Jason is right that the bowl on the left will catch the call and allow it to hold the green.  I'd argue that area is far too small to expect a player to hit from 180-200 yards out. Especially on such a windy site.  I'm not sure how much strategy is really involved if you should aim for that left bowl regardless of where the pin is?

It is pretty rare that a par 3 will be strategic, at least in my experience.   For me, the tension between what your instincts tell you to do (hit it at the middle of the green) and the best play (risk the left bunker and attempt to hit the bowl) is what makes the hole special.  Agree it is a difficult shot but I haven’t had a single digit handicap in years and can still pull it off often enough that I feel like I have a chance. 

[Shane Wright]

I would be mildly surprised if the 13th hole could survive if it were built today.  To be frank, I'm surprised it's survived in it's current form to 2024.

You need to hit it at the left edge of the green.  There is a bowl there.   It is a great hole that rewards those who figure out how to play it and execute a decent shot.

AGREED. Everyone has different tastes.  But I have always thought 13 was one of the best holes on the course.  It's a stand out par 3 for me.  It requires more strategy than most par 3's and it's beautiful, hard, a half par hole, and a feat if you can par it.  I absolutely love it.

I appreciate the response here. I played 4 rounds there with a scratch, a 2, a 7 and an 8 handicap.  In those 16 shots, 0 balls ended up on the green.  I can see that Jason is right that the bowl on the left will catch the call and allow it to hold the green.  I'd argue that area is far too small to expect a player to hit from 180-200 yards out. Especially on such a windy site.  I'm not sure how much strategy is really involved if you should aim for that left bowl regardless of where the pin is?


If it was built today, I wonder if it would be softened a bit.  Regardless, I agree it is a beautiful and natural hole.  I would not place it in the top holes on one of the best 3 courses I've every played, but that's a pretty high bar (and only my opinion)! 

Sand Hills has such a different vibe than Ballyneal or Dismal.  Us dreaded millenials may not have aged into the quiet confidence of Sand Hills yet. In that way, John is probably right that 30 year olds probably prefer Ballyneal.  Sand Hills probably wants it this way, anyways.

We just spent 3 days there and one guy in our group is an 8 handicap and he made par on 4 of the 6 rounds.  I think pretty much everyone else had 2 or 3 pars out of the 6 rounds.  A couple of these rounds were in wind from 15 up to 20 mph. Options are left, front, front right, or even the right hand bunker is a nice play. The right hand bunker is not a hard up and down.  Front and front right can be hard up and downs whether it is a putt or chip but certainly doable.  Left has a smaller room for error but certainly a decent birdie opportunity if you can hit the green.


But the bottom line - it is a par 3.5 followed by a par 4.5, #14,  which happens to be one of the greatest par 5's on the planet.   So the balance of the two is fantastic.

[Joe Zucker]

I had not thought about #13 in conjunction with #14.    That does soften my opinion slightly, as I agree if you can play the two in 8 shots, that's success.  It's nice to have the half par holes right next to each other.


All that being said, I still think the landing area on 13 is too small for middle to long iron.  I had the exact same wind for all 4 rounds (into and from the right on 13) and that probably colors my opinion here.  Every ball we hit ended up short in the front left bunker or left of the green in the high grass.  Multiple balls in the group behind us ended up on 14 tee.  I just couldn't get the ball started far enough right.


However, as Shane points out, this means 2 of my 4 drives on 14 ended up all the way down the hill with a short iron in.  I guess the only way to solve this is to get back out there and play another 100 rounds with different winds. 

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