[Ben Sims]

Even the coolest things aren’t cool in excess. My home club has no less than six of these things and at some point, it’s just hard for hard’s sake. I understand the utility reverse camber doglegs provide when testing good players. For everyone else it’s too penal when there isn’t enough room.

I'd agree that six is too many on a single course. One is good, two would be fine. I can't place an exact line, but six is definitely overkill. What is your strategy for playing those holes?

Charlie,


I’m happy to discuss my home club here in Colorado, but I stress that 1) it plays ~6400 yards at 7200ft in altitude and 2) has a slope rating of 140 from those tees. All that to say, it’s very hard while playing short. My strategy on our holes where the fairway slopes away from the dogleg is generally to take a wildly short club and hit a high ball shaded towards the inside of the dogleg. On the two fade holes I can attempt a world-carrying bomb over trees and what not, but on the four draw holes that’s impossible. These shots are often a blind shot as well. In scrambles, I’m usually the designated bomber and I play accordingly. But in events or causal rounds where I’m scoring my own ball, I lay back a lot. Ball speed and altitude are a real problem on any dogleg hole where the fairway runs out and there’s OB or red stake danger quickly behind.

[Jim O’Kane]

Golfers' natural tendency on a side slope is to aim to the high side of the line to the flag, since they know the ball will bounce back toward it.  A reverse camber is when you have to play to the low side where the ball will bounce further away from the direct line.  So it only really works when there is a major obstacle [trees or boundary] preventing you from taking a higher line.

Hi Tom.

Do you know Radrick Farms at all, being from Michigan? Do you think #2 there fits this bill? It's not really a dog leg, but does bend right to left a little bit. What makes that hole is the severe slope in the opposite direction, left to right (maybe a two story buildings worth), and the numerous Jack and the Beanstalk towering trees on the left that make taking it high and long over the tree line a wildly risky endeavor. I've had to learn that lesson more than a few times.

And although 30 years removed from my college playing days, I remember the only time I played that hole well was when I accidentally would catch one off the toe that started far right toward the low point of the slope but would draw into that slope preventing it from being pushed further right down the slope into the right rough where you're then blocked by the right tree line.

Is that one a reverse camber? Just trying to learn more. Would it need to dog leg a little more to be "true to the spirit" of a reverse camber maybe?

I love that hole cuz it's hard. I know I should hate it.

[Bill Crane]

15 at Lancaster is a reverse camber dogleg right. The majority of fairway lies are above your feet to a green that favors a left to right left shot. It's my favorite hole on the course.

Further to Rory's comment - Wm Flynn deployed reverse camber holes on many of his designs, such as Lancaster,  Rolling Green and at Springdale - where the 14th which is right to left dogleg with the slope to the right canted towards the brook that runs through the course.


Despite it's short length if you are out of position this is a challenging hole. There is definitely a bit of pucker factor on the tee when you know the effectively size of the fairway is much less and with the current dry and firm conditions the brook is really in play.


This is one of the factors that make Flynn courses challenging yet still fair.

[Charlie Goerges]

Even the coolest things aren’t cool in excess. My home club has no less than six of these things and at some point, it’s just hard for hard’s sake. I understand the utility reverse camber doglegs provide when testing good players. For everyone else it’s too penal when there isn’t enough room.

I'd agree that six is too many on a single course. One is good, two would be fine. I can't place an exact line, but six is definitely overkill. What is your strategy for playing those holes?

Charlie,


I’m happy to discuss my home club here in Colorado, but I stress that 1) it plays ~6400 yards at 7200ft in altitude and 2) has a slope rating of 140 from those tees. All that to say, it’s very hard while playing short. My strategy on our holes where the fairway slopes away from the dogleg is generally to take a wildly short club and hit a high ball shaded towards the inside of the dogleg. On the two fade holes I can attempt a world-carrying bomb over trees and what not, but on the four draw holes that’s impossible. These shots are often a blind shot as well. In scrambles, I’m usually the designated bomber and I play accordingly. But in events or causal rounds where I’m scoring my own ball, I lay back a lot. Ball speed and altitude are a real problem on any dogleg hole where the fairway runs out and there’s OB or red stake danger quickly behind.

That's an extreme-sounding course. I think your strategy is right. I think the shortness is key in a situation like that, especially if the reverse camber slopes are even slightly severe, or six of them would be an extreme slog.

[Will Spivey]

The fourth, a par 5, at Old Town Club has a pronounced reverse camber on the second shot. The hole plays strongly to the right, with the ground pulling all balls left.


To a lesser extent, the par 4 3rd also moves slightly right while the ground pulls balls to the left. It is one of my favorite Par 4's on the course.

[Mark_Fine]

Love the feature if not over used. Many think our 10th hole at Lehigh, where Flynn uses this concept, is the best hole on the golf course.  To some the concept feels awkward, almost like the land is fighting the golf hole, but that in some ways is the brilliance of it.  It requires an accurate and/or properly shaped tee shot to find the fairway and to combat or benefit from the slope.  The Olympic Club’s Lake course uses this feature as do many courses located along elevated/mountainous terrain. 

[Brett Meyer]

One of the reasons that Royal Portrush is rightly so highly regarded is because it's an excellent driving course. And one of the reasons why it's an excellent driving course is that it has several holes with, to different degrees, reverse camber fairways. The most prominent example--and probably not coincidentally one of the best holes out there--is number 15. From the back tees, you drive up and over the hill on the left with the fairway always running to the right. The further you go, the more the hole turns and the more difficult it is to keep it in the fairway. As was mentioned above, that's one of the great elements of these kinds of holes--the further you go, the more they often turn, posing a strong trade-off in the club that you choose from the tee.

Other examples on Royal Portrush are 9, 10, and to a lesser extent, 18. 9 is more subtle than 15, although there are also bunkers on the outside if the fairway if you don't cut it enough. The back tee on 10 is so far back that I'm not sure most can even reach the dogleg right from there. But from the further up tees, it's tough to pick a line and the left side of the fairway slopes sharply away.

Not to make this a post about Royal Portrush, but there are a variety of other driving challenges including tight fairways (8, 14), fairways that are tight at normal driving distance and force either accuracy or a layup (1, 2, 4), and holes where you can bomb away, although you'd better roughly hit your line and distance (5, 11, 17). I'm not as big a fan of the course as others, but I thought it was an excellent test of driving and because of this, reminded me more of a US Open course than others I played in the UK and Ireland.

[Ed Brzezowski]

15 at Lancaster is a reverse camber dogleg right. The majority of fairway lies are above your feet to a green that favors a left to right left shot. It's my favorite hole on the course.

Further to Rory's comment - Wm Flynn deployed reverse camber holes on many of his designs, such as Lancaster,  Rolling Green and at Springdale - where the 14th which is right to left dogleg with the slope to the right canted towards the brook that runs through the course.






Having rated HV yesterday you can see this in several of his holes. Got into the discussion of what it was like to play the hole when the fairways didn't run at 8 or better. Must have been a different game back then.



Despite it's short length if you are out of position this is a challenging hole. There is definitely a bit of pucker factor on the tee when you know the effectively size of the fairway is much less and with the current dry and firm conditions the brook is really in play.


This is one of the factors that make Flynn courses challenging yet still fair.

[Kalen Braley]

Love the feature if not over used. Many think our 10th hole at Lehigh, where Flynn uses this concept, is the best hole on the golf course.  To some the concept feels awkward, almost like the land is fighting the golf hole, but that in some ways is the brilliance of it.  It requires an accurate and/or properly shaped tee shot to find the fairway and to combat or benefit from the slope.  The Olympic Club’s Lake course uses this feature as do many courses located along elevated/mountainous terrain.

Mark,

The 4th at OCL always comes to mind in these conversations.  Its got plenty of reverse side to side slope (in one spot its a 20 foot differential),

It also looks like they've widened their fairways too. According to Google Earth that one in particular is over 50 yards wide at one point to presumably help out a bit! (9 also shows at 50+ yards wide too)

[Simon Barrington]

17th on the "Burma Road" Wentworth West, getting a great deal of Social Media clicks this afternoon!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Curious; what percent of slope do you define as subtle and what slope does it become steep to quite steep?

It depends on the up or down slope in the area and the type of grass.


I have seen bluegrass fw hold shots at 11% cross slope.


If the LZ is going both uphill and with cross slope, a tee shot tends to hold better, and I have also seen 11% in those cases work.


If the LZ is going both downhill and with a cross slope, anything over 5% (tops) will make the ball roll forever in the wrong direction until thick rough stops it.


All slopes should be lower with bent or Bermuda fairways, but they can reach the slopes above on blue or zoysia.

[Forrest Richardson]

Ron Whitten reviewed my Coldwater course in AZ and took note of No. 11 with its very obvious tilt right while a bending left par-5. He liked it. One of the earliest reviews I smiled at.

[Mike Feeney]

15th hole "Brenton Reef" at Newport (RI) - played as 6th in this year's Senior Open.   Dogleg right with penal bunker at the corner becomes 3x more challenging with a right-to-left-wind (rare, thankfully) and when fairway (no irrigation) is firm & fast.   The left rough is some of the nastiest on the course.                                                 
excellent photo on this page     https://championships.usga.org/ussenioropen/2024/galleries/course-tour-of-newport-country-club.html

[Jon Sweet]

I don't think it's rare, there were a couple of them on my home course as a kid. The issue with them is that they have the potential to "double-whammy" the player depending on the shot shape. I'm certain I've heard players bitching about hitting the middle of the fairway and then bounding into the rough or a bunker or OB on the outside, because they couldn't hit the required shot shape. That said, I like having them once or twice a round, they provide opportunity to think your way around the course. When you can't hit the required shot shape, you can usually lay back a little and still have the ability to advance toward the target.

Regardless of your shot shape, is there not a shot that would work?  Really up to the player to hit the shot required or make it work.  The "middle of the fairway" much like the "middle of the green" isn't always exactly where you need to be.  Similar to you are not entitled to a two putt simply by hitting the green.

[Charlie Goerges]

I don't think it's rare, there were a couple of them on my home course as a kid. The issue with them is that they have the potential to "double-whammy" the player depending on the shot shape. I'm certain I've heard players bitching about hitting the middle of the fairway and then bounding into the rough or a bunker or OB on the outside, because they couldn't hit the required shot shape. That said, I like having them once or twice a round, they provide opportunity to think your way around the course. When you can't hit the required shot shape, you can usually lay back a little and still have the ability to advance toward the target.

Regardless of your shot shape, is there not a shot that would work?  Really up to the player to hit the shot required or make it work.  The "middle of the fairway" much like the "middle of the green" isn't always exactly where you need to be.  Similar to you are not entitled to a two putt simply by hitting the green.

Yes, there is almost always a shot that will work, usually clubbing down. Lots of players are reluctant to do that though, and that's why I like this feature (but in moderation).

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