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Jim Sherma

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Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« on: September 13, 2024, 10:29:23 AM »


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/baltimore-county-country-club-closes/ar-AA1q4gSu

Hillendale CC closed this past weekend due to financial concerns. Based on people I spoke with it sounds like they overbuilt the clubhouse after a fire and never had the membership numbers necessary to cover the carry cost. I heard from an insider that the club needed 500 members to cover the cost of the clubhouse but only had around 300.

Club history can be gotten to here: https://www.hillendalecc.com/history

The club is from 1923 and the current course was early 1950's William and David Gordon. Having grown up in the Gordon heartland of southeastern PA I personally like the course and find it a fun and challenging play. Small, well defended greens and good ground movement keeps it interesting. The highlight (or lowlight based on who you talk to) is the quirky 10th hole, a severely reverse-cambered short par-4 across a steep shoulder on the edge of the property. All in all the course is of an architectural style that is definitely out of fashion with current tastes and probably caters more to better players. Sadly it sounds like another example of the non-golf activities and investments of a club being unsustainable.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2024, 11:01:52 AM by Jim Sherma »

Bernie Bell

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2024, 11:00:52 AM »
Bummer.  Perhaps it is good news for neighboring Eagle's Nest. 

BHoover

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2024, 11:13:51 AM »
Apparently the club would have required a special assessment of $11K per member to break even this year, and likely the same next year. Indeed it seems to be yet another example of lavish clubhouse expenditures leading to the financial demise of a club.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2024, 12:00:44 PM »
It is hard to believe, but I played in the MD amateur there in 1976. I enjoyed the course, although I don't remember much about it. I always thought it was a thriving club. I am sorry for the remaining members. It is hard to lose your club.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2024, 05:37:27 PM »
I played Hillendale in July 2017 (it is in Phoenix, MD) and enjoyed it. The clubhouse was really nice. I thought at the time ‘too nice?’ 


Photo album:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Hillendale/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

DFarron

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2024, 07:39:30 PM »
A big mistake many clubs make….no one joins a club because of a clubhouse.


Have had many talks with board members over the years about this but many just don’t get it.


Last private club I worked at had 2 clubhouses 🤔 and had to bump their dues to $1400/mo. Wouldn’t spend money to build a decent practice facility.
Crazy……

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2024, 09:14:17 PM »
Bummer.   One of the Gordon's better courses.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bill Shotzbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2024, 09:24:20 PM »
The idea of a private club closing in this post-COVID golf boom is unheard of to me. Worst case scenario, go semi-private. You can barely book tee times at decent munis these days. Can't imagine they wouldn't have a full tee sheet with added food and bev. revenue. I wonder if they ever tried that route.

Chris Hughes

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2024, 11:05:08 AM »

The idea of a private club closing in this post-COVID golf boom is unheard of to me. Worst case scenario, go semi-private. You can barely book tee times at decent munis these days. Can't imagine they wouldn't have a full tee sheet with added food and bev. revenue. I wonder if they ever tried that route.

Good points.

A cursory review of the 990 doesn't show completely outlandish levels of borrowing.

OP said: "I heard from an insider that the club needed 500 members to cover the cost of the clubhouse but only had around 300."

So what's the holdup on going to 500?
Who is it CRAIG SWEET wants to "LOCK UP"...??

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2024, 11:13:16 AM »
The hold up to getting to 500 members is (or was) the course isn’t that good. Certainly not good enough to justify enough people wanting to join and pay the dues to make it break even.

Chris Hughes

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2024, 12:14:21 PM »
The hold up to getting to 500 members is (or was) the course isn’t that good. Certainly not good enough to justify enough people wanting to join and pay the dues to make it break even.


What if the initiation fee was set at $1?


During the financial crisis I saw a really good club on Long Island let 100 members in for free to backfill the dues stream which had been severely impaired.


l don't know the market at all but would $1 initiation + $750 monthly dues fly there?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2024, 12:26:31 PM by Chris Hughes »
Who is it CRAIG SWEET wants to "LOCK UP"...??

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2024, 01:21:49 PM »
So what's the holdup on going to 500?
Probably the soft and hard caps.  ;D
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2024, 01:24:48 PM »
The hold up to getting to 500 members is (or was) the course isn’t that good. Certainly not good enough to justify enough people wanting to join and pay the dues to make it break even.

What if the initiation fee was set at $1?

During the financial crisis I saw a really good club on Long Island let 100 members in for free to backfill the dues stream which had been severely impaired.

l don't know the market at all but would $1 initiation + $750 monthly dues fly there?

I have to imagine it would. But another issue with Hillendale is it is located in a less-densely populated area of Baltimore County. For folks who don’t live 5-10 minutes away to want to join, the course would need to be much improved.


On the other hand, paying that money to not have to interact with folks like Erik would be more than worth the price.

Jim Sherma

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2024, 03:22:07 PM »
I'm not sure where the knock on this course comes from. Granted, while it is stylistically somewhat out of date it is still a very sound golf course that demands solid play. It hosted a US Open qualifier earlier this year and I've never heard anyone disparage the course or the club beyond saying that it was too hard. I agree with Mike C's claim that it is one of the better Gordon courses and it is on a nice piece of land and has a good set of greens. There is local competition that will likely benefit from one less course in the area (Hunt Valley, Hayfields, Eagle's Nest are closest privates). I certainly don't know what the internal decision making is/was but would think that opening up the membership to a $1 initiation would be very antithetical to the club culture and would essentially be a big step to blowing up the club and making it a public for-profit business. Also, if losses were being subsidized by one or more wealthy members the accrued public facing borrowing might be understating the ongoing losses.

Jim Franklin

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2024, 03:23:22 PM »
I guess Baltimore Country Club is going to have an influx of new applications like we did when Chestnut Ridge shut down. Can't wait. I am sure we will let in numerous new members.
Mr Hurricane

BHoover

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2024, 03:32:02 PM »
I guess Baltimore Country Club is going to have an influx of new applications like we did when Chestnut Ridge shut down. Can't wait. I am sure we will let in numerous new members.


Jim, I think that will be the case at most of the area clubs. We have seen it at my place as well.

Chris Hughes

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2024, 03:39:59 PM »
I guess Baltimore Country Club is going to have an influx of new applications like we did when Chestnut Ridge shut down. Can't wait. I am sure we will let in numerous new members.


Jim, I think that will be the case at most of the area clubs. We have seen it at my place as well.




Are your clubs not full?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2024, 07:11:10 PM by Chris Hughes »
Who is it CRAIG SWEET wants to "LOCK UP"...??

BHoover

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2024, 04:03:07 PM »
I’m not on the board or the membership committee at my club, so I can’t speak with any authority. I suspect we are full or close to capacity…but the prospect of an infusion of new members and their initiation fees might be too tempting to resist. Unfortunately that likely means having to accommodate more rounds for already busy courses.

Craig Disher

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2024, 04:06:05 PM »
The Gordons suffered in the Baltimore-DC corridor. They built two good courses outside of DC, one of which hosted professional tournaments in the 50s and until it closed had a thriving membership. The original Hillendale was wedged in between CC of Md and Mt Pleasant. It might have survived given its location and elegant clubhouse but the lease ran out. I remember seeing the newer Hillendale clubhouse and rolled my eyes. It was huge; white elephant comes to mind.

Chris Hughes

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2024, 04:25:18 PM »
A big mistake many clubs make….no one joins a club because of a clubhouse.


Have had many talks with board members over the years about this but many just don’t get it.


Last private club I worked at had 2 clubhouses 🤔 and had to bump their dues to $1400/mo. Wouldn’t spend money to build a decent practice facility.
Crazy……




Bingo.




A big clubhouse built with lots of debt -- combined with the inevitable/resultant massive dues increases -- is the #1 club killer out there.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2024, 04:28:19 PM by Chris Hughes »
Who is it CRAIG SWEET wants to "LOCK UP"...??

Chris Hughes

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2024, 04:41:55 PM »
I’m not on the board or the membership committee at my club, so I can’t speak with any authority. I suspect we are full or close to capacity…but the prospect of an infusion of new members and their initiation fees might be too tempting to resist. Unfortunately that likely means having to accommodate more rounds for already busy courses.


If it were full with a waiting list you'd probably know.


It might be interesting to know what the "cap" is for your club, the subject is usually covered in the bylaws.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2024, 07:11:55 PM by Chris Hughes »
Who is it CRAIG SWEET wants to "LOCK UP"...??

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2024, 06:21:23 PM »
Five hundred members is a lot. Tee times would be tough to get. Most of the clubs where I have been a member capped it around 300-350.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Chris Hughes

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Re: Hillendale CC - Phoenixville, MD - Closes
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2024, 07:18:43 PM »
Five hundred members is a lot. Tee times would be tough to get. Most of the clubs where I have been a member capped it around 300-350.


Depends on where you live.


On Long Island the range seemed to be 250-400.  Down south 500 is often on the lower end (and yes, once you get above 500 tee times are tough). 
Who is it CRAIG SWEET wants to "LOCK UP"...??