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Matt Schoolfield

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I was thinking about this recently -- it honestly came about via a comment I made on tiktok -- but it's just a thought, would it be reasonable to have a token/target hazard on the first hole, such that it should generally be in play to help players choose the correct tees to play from?

I first thought of this playing Sharp Park, which has the mildest three humps in the center of the fairway, and I was thinking it was probably ideal to choose the tees that make carrying the bumps at least a challenge.

I'm certainly not someone who thinks that "bunkers should be at x and y distances only," but I definitely think that it would be an easier way to get folks on the right tees rather than asking them to use some fairly obscure total distance measurement.

It wouldn't even have to be a hazard, it could even be distance marker. Basically anything that can be tagged with a laser, or seen on a gps unit.

Any thoughts on this?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2024, 03:28:56 AM by Matt Schoolfield »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2024, 08:59:05 PM »
Matt:


Maybe that was an idea behind the cross-bunkers of yore?  [Or, it could have been if they'd had multiple tees.]


My experience is that golfers choose the tees they are used to playing, whether it's the tips, the second from the back, the middle of five, etc.  Or they choose based on the total yardage, and play from the lowest distance over 6000 yards.  I don't think any of them wait until they look at the first hole to decide where to play from.

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2024, 09:31:26 PM »
My experience is that golfers choose the tees they are used to playing, whether it's the tips, the second from the back, the middle of five, etc.  Or they choose based on the total yardage, and play from the lowest distance over 6000 yards.  I don't think any of them wait until they look at the first hole to decide where to play from.
Fair enough! Meanwhile, I'm the nerd trying to do calculations in my head at each new course to figure out which set of tees will engage best with the architectural intent.

Jason Topp

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2024, 10:04:57 AM »

I believe a course that should be played from a particular set of tees is generally a poorly designed course.  A good course design is enjoyable from shorter or longer than one ordinarily plays. 
[size=78%] [/size]

Jackson C

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2024, 10:15:38 AM »
Interesting thought Matt.
I’ve had many guests of differing handicaps and club head speeds at Kingsley Club over the years.
The first hole which is a par 5, large bunker complex in the middle, with varying tee boxes left right and far to near, actually is a good indicator of the tees one should play.
"The secrets that golf reveals to the game's best are secrets those players must discover for themselves."
Christy O'Connor, Sr. (1998)

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2024, 06:23:07 PM »
I believe a course that should be played from a particular set of tees is generally a poorly designed course.  A good course design is enjoyable from shorter or longer than one ordinarily plays. 
I want to say that I genuinely agree with you here, which is why I added the caveat that:
I'm certainly not someone who thinks that "bunkers should be at x and y distances only,"
I would still say that given the nature of strategy in two-shot and three-shot holes, combine with hard limit on driving distances for individuals, I think it's a hard argument to make that every two or three shot hole should have strategic interest from every distance off every tee. I just think that's asking too much.

If i were to evaluate the merits of some templates, we could argue over which were more distance neutral, vs which were distance dependent. I'd argue that discrete hazards (like cross bunkers) are distance dependent, where as continuous hazards (like OB) are less so.

I'd say a double plateau template will generally be distance dependent. We need a proverbial principal's nose somewhere, but it will generally be ideal if the principals nose is in play, but only carry-able in ideal conditions. We can obviously argue the details there.

I'd say that a C&C template based on #2 at Talking Stick would be less distance dependent. Given the nature of the away-and-back of this hole, I think pretty much anyone could play it from pretty much any tee, but longer hitters are going to start playing it like a par 3 if they are playing the front tees, and it's unreasonable to say that's part of C&C's intention.

Some holes, however, I think are absolutely based on player distance, and lack much interest whatsoever when played from the too short of a distance. The template that immediately comes to mind is the Biarritz. Playing even a mid-iron into a hole like this is pretty much a cakewalk, and may be fine, but seems like a bit of a waste of time to me. That said, folks are perfectly free to disagree with me, or just argue that it's to the template's detriment (and I think that can be a persuasive argument).

---

Beyond these template examples, I think there is something to be said for the non-linearity of drives and approach shots on most golf holes, and I've been planning on writing something on some mathematical curves that allow the exact challenge on drives and approaches for folks who play different length shots from there respective tees. However, while I think the math is really interesting, I think that, as golf holes, they would be too ugly that nobody would want to build them.

Suffices to say, I suspect that many architects are building bunkers that they intend to be generally in play from each tee. If they are, then I think a token feature on the first hole would be a helpful way to get folks on the the optimal tee.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2024, 06:25:06 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

John Handley

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2024, 07:04:36 PM »


Quote from: Tom_Doak on Yesterday at 08:59:05 PM[size=0px]My experience is that golfers choose the tees they are used to playing, whether it's the tips, the second from the back, the middle of five, etc.  Or they choose based on the total yardage, and play from the lowest distance over 6000 yards.  I don't think any of them wait until they look at the first hole to decide where to play from.[/size]

[/color]Fair enough! Meanwhile, I'm the nerd trying to do calculations in my head at each new course to figure out which set of tees will engage best with the architectural intent.[/size][/color][/size]Not to be rude or anything, but if you are an 18 index, I think you may be over thinking this.  Forget what the architectural intent is and just go have fun.[/color]
2024 Line Up: Spanish Oaks GC, Cal Club, Cherokee Plantation, Huntercombe, West Sussex, Hankley Common, Royal St. Georges, Sunningdale New & Old, CC of the Rockies, Royal Lytham, Royal Birkdale, Formby, Royal Liverpool, Swinley Forest, St. George's Hill, Berkshire Red, Walton Heath Old, Austin GC,

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2024, 07:15:30 PM »
Not to be rude or anything, but if you are an 18 index, I think you may be over thinking this.  Forget what the architectural intent is and just go have fun.

Ha. The idea that you would belittle higher handicap players for being concerned with architectural intent is wild. It's far more important for higher handicap players to understand how holes play than it is for the single digit folks. Playing to your strengths is exactly what strategy is about.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2024, 07:27:37 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

John Handley

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2024, 11:51:25 PM »
I am not belittling you so I am sorry you took it that way.  My point is that I have seen people in this forum take things a little too seriously when golf is a game meant to be fun and enjoyed with friends or making new friends.  We often overthink the whole concept of architecture but hey, it's kind of interesting and gives people something to spend time on.  While I applaud your huge passion for golf and golf course architecture, I hope it doesn't get lost to just have fun.  That's all.
2024 Line Up: Spanish Oaks GC, Cal Club, Cherokee Plantation, Huntercombe, West Sussex, Hankley Common, Royal St. Georges, Sunningdale New & Old, CC of the Rockies, Royal Lytham, Royal Birkdale, Formby, Royal Liverpool, Swinley Forest, St. George's Hill, Berkshire Red, Walton Heath Old, Austin GC,

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2024, 03:09:31 AM »
I am not belittling you so I am sorry you took it that way.  My point is that I have seen people in this forum take things a little too seriously when golf is a game meant to be fun and enjoyed with friends or making new friends.  We often overthink the whole concept of architecture but hey, it's kind of interesting and gives people something to spend time on.  While I applaud your huge passion for golf and golf course architecture, I hope it doesn't get lost to just have fun.  That's all.
Respectfully, I'm definitely not trying to get into a dumb fight on the internet. I'll take you at your word. I didn't even realize you were referring to me. I agree with you that golf is just recreation, and there are much more important things in life. I like golf course architecture because I think it's really interesting. I think it's fun to see an idea illustrated in the earth. The thought that I would have more fun by turning that part of my brain off just doesn't seem like much fun to me at all, but to each their own. You do you.

I actually started this thread because I thought a token hazard on the first hole (or perhaps the inverse, a token landing area) would be a seamless way that architects could communicate a general distance expectations from tees without saying it out loud (if that is they way they do designs). Instead, as Tom notes, I generally see wide open first fairways, and folks just go to their typical color or to the tips without thinking. If that's what they want to do, fair enough. I just think a token hazard could be helpful.

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2024, 01:26:32 PM »
We often overthink the whole concept of architecture but hey, it's kind of interesting and gives people something to spend time on.


Kind of a strange thing to read from someone posting to a forum dedicated solely to golf course architecture.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tim Martin

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2024, 02:03:09 PM »

I believe a course that should be played from a particular set of tees is generally a poorly designed course.  A good course design is enjoyable from shorter or longer than one ordinarily plays. 



Jason-I generally agree with your post but wonder how enjoyable it is for someone to hit woods and hybrids on most approaches into par fours? Back before the advent of hybrid tees we would often play the threes and fives back and the par 4’s from the member tees which after aging to the senior ranks worked pretty well. To have a 185 yard par three change to a 140 yards or a 510 yard par five reduced to 470 yards usually felt like the architectural intent was being compromised.

Philippe Binette

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2024, 02:23:11 PM »
My home course had a 190 yard carry of the back tee on the first hole... and the white tees were 45 yards in front...


190 carry is not much these days... but 20 years ago, there wasn't a lot of people stepping on the back tee...

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2024, 02:25:51 PM »
My home course had a 190 yard carry of the back tee on the first hole... and the white tees were 45 yards in front...


190 carry is not much these days... but 20 years ago, there wasn't a lot of people stepping on the back tee...




That actually sounds like it worked perfectly in the way Matt's describing. I'm assuming it's a course where most people shouldn't be playing the back tees?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Ira Fishman

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2024, 03:34:49 PM »
At Ballyneal, all of the above are accomplished. Because there are no tee markers, after my caddie sees on the first hole that I fibbed about my game, he picked the tees the rest of the way for my wife and me. It is a wonderful course from wherever you tee it up. And there were a couple of holes where we played from more than one tee (nobody behind us) which only proved the point.


Ira

Craig Sweet

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2024, 05:22:24 PM »
Wouldn't it be smarter to have a starter guiding people to the appropriate tee?  This weekend I followed two groups of young men hitting from the tips, and the next tees up, and they slowed the pace of play to a crawl.  They could barely reach the fairway on several holes, and from the looks of them off the tee and from the fairway the were 20-30 handicappers. 


How hard is it to have a starter ask on the first tee "what do you usually shoot"  and guide them to the proper tee?
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2024, 06:09:10 PM »
How hard is it to have a starter ask on the first tee "what do you usually shoot"  and guide them to the proper tee?

There is an dichotomy in the tee box choice theory (as far is I understand it), generally because longer off the tee implies, but does not necessitate, that a player is more skilled.

On the one hand, tee choice should be one of correct handicap. The argument here is that shorter holes are easier, therefore higher handicappers will play better on them.

On the other hand, tee choice should be one if driver distance. The argument here is that the course design features are set at general, if slightly variable distances, but a driver to a feature is the idea behind the hole, and so you should play to your driving distance more than your handicap.

I see both of these arguments as having merit, though, given good-faith play (at a decent pace), I probably side with the distance as guide to most course (as driver -> wedge tends to get boring).

I see this as another unfortunate result of "game-improvement" golf tech. As golf became more of a strength game and less of a finesse game, you now have lots of young men out of college hitting the ball 280 and 100 yards offline, and this often includes a back injury a few years down the road. A miss-hit of that magnitude with persimmons would have just sent the ball 8 yards forward and 8 yards offline... if any contact was made at all.

Craig Sweet

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2024, 06:15:32 PM »
John Handley, I think you are correct that we over think golf course architecture.  Not the work involved with designing and building a course, but rather how we perceive people think about golf course architecture and how they play the course. Generally, they don't think their way around a course at all.  Does that make the designers efforts to make angles important, or place a bunker or pond strategically a waste of time?


 
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2024, 06:21:34 PM »
Matt, I once hit a 300 yard drive and now I expect to hit it 300 yards all the time.  That seems to be the thinking I encounter everyday at Old Works.  Thus, because I once hit a ball 300 yards, I will wait on every hole for the group ahead to be at least 350 away before I hit, and because I once hit a ball 300 yards, I will wait, after my 150 yard drive, to wait for the group ahead to clear the green before I hit my 280 yard 2nd shot.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2024, 08:07:05 AM »
The tees I play are determined by looking at the scorecard before I play and then also asking playing partners what tees they want to play from.


No first hole hazard ever influenced that decision.
Tim Weiman

Philippe Binette

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Re: Target/token hazard on the first hole to help players choose tees?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2024, 09:53:40 AM »
Bad tee selection often ruins pace of play... i love the Scottish approach, you're not touching the back tee unless autorized...
Bring your handicap card, and if not convinced, the starter will decide after your first tee shot...
Apparently in the past at Troon, it was Colin Montgomerie's father making the call...
If you choke and hit a cold snap hook 180 yards in the air... you don't deserve to play on the back tee