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mike_malone

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How hard is it to design a golf course?
« on: August 16, 2024, 08:24:31 PM »
Watching the US Am I see a green that has six or seven points to it making me think a lot of thought went into its design. Then I wonder whether the other features are less complex to provide balance to the hole or just as complex to just keep the same theme going.


 Makes me think that designing a golf course is difficult.


Tell us about your challenges.
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2024, 02:59:24 PM »
Anyone on this Discussion Board could design a golf course tomorrow . . .


if . . . deciding where the holes go and where the bunkers go and what the green contours are just requires you as "designer" to point, and you have someone else with experience to actually do the work.


Whether it turned out well or not would depend on your common sense.  Probably the most important piece is that you'd need to pick places for the fairway landing areas and the greens where there is good air movement and natural drainage.  If you get that wrong, it's not going to work well no matter how cool you think your bunker scheme is.

Thomas Dai

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Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2024, 03:49:47 PM »
Reading the opening thread has me thinking of the comments made by those in the business in response to this thread I raised quite a while ago about the hardest aspects of being a golf course architect -
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67141.msg1604727.html#msg1604727
Atb

mike_malone

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Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2024, 05:52:34 PM »
Reading the opening thread has me thinking of the comments made by those in the business in response to this thread I raised quite a while ago about the hardest aspects of being a golf course architect -
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67141.msg1604727.html#msg1604727
Atb


Thomas,


This is helpful about being a designer. I was going for the challenging parts of doing the work.
AKA Mayday

Ira Fishman

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Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2024, 08:01:59 PM »
When I used felt in high school, the micro contours were awesome.


Ira

Tom_Doak

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Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2024, 08:56:16 PM »
I was going for the challenging parts of doing the work.


Mike:


For me, the two most challenging parts of the work are doing the routing plan and designing the greens, and those two things are where I spend 75% of my time on site.


If I get the routing right, I feel like I'm giving you good places to build bunkers and build greens.  Even so, building interesting greens is really challenging in this day and age, because the margin of tolerance between "boring" and "too severe" is so tight.


Sure, if you want to just build boring, playable greens, that's easy enough to do.  If you want to build something more interesting than that, it's really challenging.

mike_malone

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Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2024, 09:11:39 PM »
Tom,


 As an experienced architect I imagine it is challenging to be fresh but not original just for being original’s sake. Possibly having associates helps that.
AKA Mayday

cary lichtenstein

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Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2024, 08:10:24 PM »
It's way harder than you think, especially if your given a flat site and a min earth moving budget, yuck!!
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2024, 02:54:56 AM »
Tom,


 As an experienced architect I imagine it is challenging to be fresh but not original just for being original’s sake. Possibly having associates helps that.


Yes, having different lead associates and shapers for different projects helps differentiate my courses.  But not as much as having different sites and different clients!

Ian Andrew

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Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2024, 09:11:03 AM »
Tell us about your challenges.
 
From the "third tier" perspective I will answer your question. I'm more than a regional architect, but I don't play in the waters that you like to discuss on this site. I do work at a few courses that everyone on this site knows very well and probably would be surprised (need to update the web site).
 
So, the starting point is finding enough work.
 
Around 2000, the economy tanked and the golf development bubble burst. About 25% of all architects were forced out of the business. The next major hiccup was when the work in China stopped about 25% more of the remaining architects were forced out. The remaining work could only keep so many architects busy.
The business is very cyclical. This current bubble will burst too It’s just hard to say when and what the impact will be. The end is quick and projects get cancelled overnight. There was another one in the early 1990's too, but it was short-lived and architects got through it because things picked up again. 2009 was like that too.

Starting off in the business is very hard.
 
You don’t design much of anything. You can either work for someone (that means in construction now) and by extension eventually get an opportunity. This is a big life commitment being on site full-time and away from home. Its not just a year or two its usually a decade or more.
 
Or you can begin at the bottom. That usually means doing a lot of work that's not exciting to people here. Plans for small clubs, limited budgets etc. Building a business where slowly the work becomes more interesting and the clients get better. Brian Silva's absolutely classic line in 1999 was I'm expanding ladies tees 500 sq.ft. at a time to pay the bills. There's some truth in his sarcasm.
Whatever your starting point, its never overnight.
 
I began my business with about $20,000 in cash as a backstop. Two kids and a mortgage. There was a point where I thought I would miss a mortgage payment in the first year and I was 18 years in as an architect and finally on my own.

The next stage to this is finding better clients and more interesting work. That involves slowly developing some sort of network. That also takes a lot of time, but I will say doing good work can certainly help after a few years. We find our way to the work that we do.
 
So that's an interesting diversion. You don't get to do what you "want" to do unless you invest enough of your non-architecture time. Being in the right circles to get the chance is critical. That's a massive investment of time (and money). The time Bill, Gil and Tom spend outside of work doing things to make this happen would be shocking to you if you knew. It’s the part that most don’t have a clue about.

Mike, I no longer have any challenges at all. I’m 35 years in. I’m on the final chapter of my career. I’m no longer looking for work. I actually enjoy my younger peers slowly pushing me aside (like they should) and establishing the next generation. It’s good for the artform. So, I thought instead I would take the perspective of “if you want to do this, what would you face, to answer your question.”
 
Hope that helped.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2024, 12:24:47 PM »
Tell us about your challenges.
 
From the "third tier" perspective I will answer your question. I'm more than a regional architect, but I don't play in the waters that you like to discuss on this site. I do work at a few courses that everyone on this site knows very well and probably would be surprised (need to update the web site).
 
So, the starting point is finding enough work.
 
Around 2000, the economy tanked and the golf development bubble burst. About 25% of all architects were forced out of the business. The next major hiccup was when the work in China stopped about 25% more of the remaining architects were forced out. The remaining work could only keep so many architects busy.
The business is very cyclical. This current bubble will burst too It’s just hard to say when and what the impact will be. The end is quick and projects get cancelled overnight. There was another one in the early 1990's too, but it was short-lived and architects got through it because things picked up again. 2009 was like that too.

Starting off in the business is very hard.
 
You don’t design much of anything. You can either work for someone (that means in construction now) and by extension eventually get an opportunity. This is a big life commitment being on site full-time and away from home. Its not just a year or two its usually a decade or more.
 
Or you can begin at the bottom. That usually means doing a lot of work that's not exciting to people here. Plans for small clubs, limited budgets etc. Building a business where slowly the work becomes more interesting and the clients get better. Brian Silva's absolutely classic line in 1999 was I'm expanding ladies tees 500 sq.ft. at a time to pay the bills. There's some truth in his sarcasm.
Whatever your starting point, its never overnight.
 
I began my business with about $20,000 in cash as a backstop. Two kids and a mortgage. There was a point where I thought I would miss a mortgage payment in the first year and I was 18 years in as an architect and finally on my own.

The next stage to this is finding better clients and more interesting work. That involves slowly developing some sort of network. That also takes a lot of time, but I will say doing good work can certainly help after a few years. We find our way to the work that we do.
 
So that's an interesting diversion. You don't get to do what you "want" to do unless you invest enough of your non-architecture time. Being in the right circles to get the chance is critical. That's a massive investment of time (and money). The time Bill, Gil and Tom spend outside of work doing things to make this happen would be shocking to you if you knew. It’s the part that most don’t have a clue about.

Mike, I no longer have any challenges at all. I’m 35 years in. I’m on the final chapter of my career. I’m no longer looking for work. I actually enjoy my younger peers slowly pushing me aside (like they should) and establishing the next generation. It’s good for the artform. So, I thought instead I would take the perspective of “if you want to do this, what would you face, to answer your question.”
 
Hope that helped.
+1

AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2024, 07:49:33 PM »


You don't get to do what you "want" to do unless you invest enough of your non-architecture time. Being in the right circles to get the chance is critical. That's a massive investment of time (and money). The time Bill, Gil and Tom spend outside of work doing things to make this happen would be shocking to you if you knew. It’s the part that most don’t have a clue about


My wife [and kids] would be happy to vouch for this.  And my ex-wife, as well.  Honestly, though, I did the biggest part of it between the ages of 19 and 29, before I was married or had kids.  That was the greatest advantage of starting young.


Lots of the younger generation think of it as schmoozing or networking, but I can assure you it is not so much that as it is taking time to respond to the increasing number of people who are interested in what you are doing.  It is also sorting through potential clients and trying to take only the really good jobs, instead of whatever you can get.  Young guys assume they should take everything on offer, but they clearly have not looked seriously at how Bill Coore or Gil Hanse or I got ahead.


I keep trying to explain it to my associates, that they have to spend 25x as much time on it as they do, if they want to get to the top of the business.  Of course, they should be careful what they wish for.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2024, 11:58:13 AM »
Anyone on this Discussion Board could design a golf course tomorrow . . .


if . . . deciding where the holes go and where the bunkers go and what the green contours are just requires you as "designer" to point, and you have someone else with experience to actually do the work.


Whether it turned out well or not would depend on your common sense.  Probably the most important piece is that you'd need to pick places for the fairway landing areas and the greens where there is good air movement and natural drainage.  If you get that wrong, it's not going to work well no matter how cool you think your bunker scheme is.


Tom,


You do qualify things a bit, but I have heard you sometimes say it is easy, and many could do it.  I'm not even sure everyone in our profession can do it well. Forgetting the business side that you and Ian bring up, which I didn't think was the point of the thread, designers generally need the creative personality type, which is not common.  To me, creativity is constantly going over ideas and finding new ways to combine old ideas to work rather than using a straight line "A to B to C....." process to arrive at a design for that setting.


I agree routing is the hard part.  Over the years, I have gone to a site visit, and someone on the owner's team has prepared their own routing.  They were, without exception, terrible.  Creativity and learning from someone who knows are pretty important.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2024, 12:16:38 PM »

Tom,

You do qualify things a bit, but I have heard you sometimes say it is easy, and many could do it.  I'm not even sure everyone in our profession can do it well. Forgetting the business side that you and Ian bring up, which I didn't think was the point of the thread, designers generally need the creative personality type, which is not common.  To me, creativity is constantly going over ideas and finding new ways to combine old ideas to work rather than using a straight line "A to B to C....." process to arrive at a design for that setting.

I agree routing is the hard part.  Over the years, I have gone to a site visit, and someone on the owner's team has prepared their own routing.  They were, without exception, terrible.  Creativity and learning from someone who knows are pretty important.


Jeff:


It's easy to design something; it's far different to design something good.  I don't think we disagree on that.


I think we might disagree over the idea that there is some "designer gene" that a few of us have and others do not.  I have patiently listened while a couple of architects have told me that they have this thing that shapers don't have . . . they clearly haven't met the same shapers I have met.  If you can think in 3-D, there is a very good chance that you can design something.


One of my favorite books is Paul Daley's "Favorite Golf Holes by Design," or whatever it's called, and it was amazing to me to see how many different ways the various designers described their favorite hole:  narrative, sketch, simple strategy plan, CAD drawing, photo rendering, etc.  There are certainly lots of different ways to do it.


The part that's left out is that pretty much everyone relies on a lot of help from different sources in order to do good work.  I think I would do better than most guys if the assignment was to build a few great holes in the sand hills all by my lonesome, but even if you're the best in the world under those circumstances, you're not as good as if you get a couple of talented people to help you -- plus the work goes a lot faster ;-)   Different guys just need that help in different areas.


I do agree on the routing part.  I can't believe some of the things I've seen from land planners who have done a preliminary master plan for an 800-acre property . . . even the firms that are supposed to be the best in the business.  But, they aren't even trying to make the golf course any good.  They are entirely focused on maximizing real estate value.  They would have a conniption over something as bad as Pebble Beach!

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2024, 03:56:23 PM »
I'm seconding what Tom & Jeff said regarding the importance of routing, drainage & landing/greens placement on the techincal side.


On the other side Ian and a few others touched on the non-creative or business side of the design business.  Most of my contemporiaries from design school were vey creative but couldn't write a busniess plan or balance a checkbook.  We had a joke that if you gave most LA's $800,000 they couldn't turn themselves into millionares, they are so bad at business.


Most most successful peers from school are:


1. Principal at a multi-disiplinary (A/E) firm
2. Director of Real estate for a regionl convenience store chain.
3. Self-storage guru
4. By far the most successful is a guy took his degree and moved out to the east end of Long Island in the late 80'/early 90's and established his own design/build practice for the wealthy who summer on the East End.  His clients don't care what it costs, just get it done.

archie_struthers

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Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2024, 04:26:31 PM »
 8)


I think it looks easy but there are tons of detail that would be missed without knowing a lot about the process. So simplifying that you have to have a "team" in place to handle all the details to tying in the drainage specifically for a golf course, knowing the angles and ability of people to hit it places to simplify the design intent, etc etc etc.  The architect may of may not be able float a green and run a dozer but needs to delegate multiple jobs to people that won't misunderstand direction. It costs so much to go back and fix mistakes that aren't in the initial phase of construction just like in building a house.


Once you handle the $ and time budgeting for the build you have to transfer the artistic part of the process from paper to the dirt. This is where not everyone would have the flair to make it good as Tom says!


I remembered just how many great ideas Ed Carmen, a brilliant  guy and golfer had in his dream course at Running Deer in South Jersey.  But there are enough flaws that he could have addressed had the budget not gotten in the way at the end. I feel the same way about the holes I didn't fix at Twisted Dune though I'm proud of the work we did!


Looking back it ain't easy!    to do it well

Kalen Braley

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Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2024, 05:00:59 PM »
In light of this thread, assuming this took place this year, curious how it went?

https://golf.com/lifestyle/could-you-design-golf-course/


Original thread

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,72432.0.html
« Last Edit: August 26, 2024, 05:03:11 PM by Kalen Braley »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2024, 05:27:37 PM »
Kalen,


It happens in a few weeks, September 9-13.  I'll let you know how it went. ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2024, 05:41:53 PM »
I drive by a 100 foot landfill outside Wilmington Delaware and wonder how I would route holes on that elevation. Since I’m a Flynn nut I would try to run along the hill rather than up and down as much as possible. But I’m positive that an experienced architect would do a much better job. How often do I write on a page and run out of room?
AKA Mayday

Bruce Katona

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Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2024, 01:39:52 PM »
Mike:

Bayonne Golf Club and Granite Links in Quincy, MA are shining examples of how to successfully route a course on a landfill - McCullough's Emerald Links (just down the road from Archie's vision @ Twisted Dunes) is another example.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2024, 04:35:13 PM »
Mike:

Bayonne Golf Club and Granite Links in Quincy, MA are shining examples of how to successfully route a course on a landfill - McCullough's Emerald Links (just down the road from Archie's vision @ Twisted Dunes) is another example.
Played both and the would inspire me but this hill is tough. It would be great to have a waterfront course in Wilmington though.
AKA Mayday

Ian Andrew

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Re: How hard is it to design a golf course?
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2024, 12:18:24 PM »
Did my thesis on recovering an active landfill sites for golf. I spent my dissertation talking about why I thought it was actually a poor idea. In my research phase I visited quite a few of them. Each had problems varying from settlement to leachate to active methane escaping through the cap. You pour water on the dead turf and watch it bubble. Weird experience.


Gravel pits remain a much better alternative and there are more than enough to satisfy golf.


Just on man’s opinion. Probably a little off the topic.




With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....