Impressions from US Am

[Jason Topp]

I have made a couple of visits to the US Am - once to Chaska Town Course to watch a bit of qualifying and a few hours of the round of 64.  My impressions:


1.  These guys are long!  The fairways are bouncy at Hazeltine but they are hitting flip wedges into 18 (471 yards uphill/downind), and some irons into 15 (645 downwind).  The 245 yard 13th played into a 15 mph wind but it was still an iron.  The 595 yard 11th (into wind, somewhat uphill) was easily reachable for most people I watched.  The 7600 yards they are playing seems like a reasonable distance based on their games. 


2.  The rough is deep!  It has to have been miserable for the members this year but, contrary to orthodoxy, I prefer the deeper rough than the essentially nonexistent rough that existed for the Ryder Cup.  There needs to be a reward for accurate tee shots and good strategy.  Deeper rough causes these players enough problems that it does the job.


3.  Match Play is on the wrong course - Chaska Town Course has a lot of half par holes and would have presented more interesting match play situations.  With a few notable exceptions, Hazeltine rewards the middle of the fairway and the middle of the greens.


4.  It is a pleasure to watch an amateur tournament.  The smaller crowds make it easier to watch the play, the play is outstanding and the crowd consists largely of golf nuts, so I kept running into friends along the way.  I highy recommend it if an event is in your area.

[John Blain]

I have made a couple of visits to the US Am - once to Chaska Town Course to watch a bit of qualifying and a few hours of the round of 64.  My impressions:


1.  These guys are long!  The fairways are bouncy at Hazeltine but they are hitting flip wedges into 18 (471 yards uphill/downind), and some irons into 15 (645 downwind).  The 245 yard 13th played into a 15 mph wind but it was still an iron.  The 595 yard 11th (into wind, somewhat uphill) was easily reachable for most people I watched.  The 7600 yards they are playing seems like a reasonable distance based on their games. 


2.  The rough is deep!  It has to have been miserable for the members this year but, contrary to orthodoxy, I prefer the deeper rough than the essentially nonexistent rough that existed for the Ryder Cup.  There needs to be a reward for accurate tee shots and good strategy.  Deeper rough causes these players enough problems that it does the job.


3.  Match Play is on the wrong course - Chaska Town Course has a lot of half par holes and would have presented more interesting match play situations.  With a few notable exceptions, Hazeltine rewards the middle of the fairway and the middle of the greens.


4.  It is a pleasure to watch an amateur tournament.  The smaller crowds make it easier to watch the play, the play is outstanding and the crowd consists largely of golf nuts, so I kept running into friends along the way.  I highy recommend it if an event is in your area.

Good summary.
I was watching it last night and couldn't help but notice that virtually all of the "fairway" bunkers were buried in the rough and the few that were partially in the fairway were surrounded by 5 yards or more of rough.
Why aren't fairway bunkers actually in the fairway? Seems to me that it would be much more interesting if the fairway cut ran right into the bunker.
I'm not picking on Hazeltine as it seems like this typical of many American parkland courses.

[A.G._Crockett]

I have made a couple of visits to the US Am - once to Chaska Town Course to watch a bit of qualifying and a few hours of the round of 64.  My impressions:


1.  These guys are long!  The fairways are bouncy at Hazeltine but they are hitting flip wedges into 18 (471 yards uphill/downind), and some irons into 15 (645 downwind).  The 245 yard 13th played into a 15 mph wind but it was still an iron.  The 595 yard 11th (into wind, somewhat uphill) was easily reachable for most people I watched.  The 7600 yards they are playing seems like a reasonable distance based on their games. 


2.  The rough is deep!  It has to have been miserable for the members this year but, contrary to orthodoxy, I prefer the deeper rough than the essentially nonexistent rough that existed for the Ryder Cup.  There needs to be a reward for accurate tee shots and good strategy.  Deeper rough causes these players enough problems that it does the job.


3.  Match Play is on the wrong course - Chaska Town Course has a lot of half par holes and would have presented more interesting match play situations.  With a few notable exceptions, Hazeltine rewards the middle of the fairway and the middle of the greens.


4.  It is a pleasure to watch an amateur tournament.  The smaller crowds make it easier to watch the play, the play is outstanding and the crowd consists largely of golf nuts, so I kept running into friends along the way.  I highy recommend it if an event is in your area.

I don’t know this, of course, but the course selection for match play may be more about infrastructure and TV than the course itself.  The ability to set up cameras and lay cable without impacting play is a big part of a telecast, and Hazeltine may lend itself to that better. 

[John Blain]

I have made a couple of visits to the US Am - once to Chaska Town Course to watch a bit of qualifying and a few hours of the round of 64.  My impressions:


1.  These guys are long!  The fairways are bouncy at Hazeltine but they are hitting flip wedges into 18 (471 yards uphill/downind), and some irons into 15 (645 downwind).  The 245 yard 13th played into a 15 mph wind but it was still an iron.  The 595 yard 11th (into wind, somewhat uphill) was easily reachable for most people I watched.  The 7600 yards they are playing seems like a reasonable distance based on their games. 


2.  The rough is deep!  It has to have been miserable for the members this year but, contrary to orthodoxy, I prefer the deeper rough than the essentially nonexistent rough that existed for the Ryder Cup.  There needs to be a reward for accurate tee shots and good strategy.  Deeper rough causes these players enough problems that it does the job.


3.  Match Play is on the wrong course - Chaska Town Course has a lot of half par holes and would have presented more interesting match play situations.  With a few notable exceptions, Hazeltine rewards the middle of the fairway and the middle of the greens.


4.  It is a pleasure to watch an amateur tournament.  The smaller crowds make it easier to watch the play, the play is outstanding and the crowd consists largely of golf nuts, so I kept running into friends along the way.  I highy recommend it if an event is in your area.

I don’t know this, of course, but the course selection for match play may be more about infrastructure and TV than the course itself.  The ability to set up cameras and lay cable without impacting play is a big part of a telecast, and Hazeltine may lend itself to that better.

The match play is always played on the course that is hosting the championship which in this case is Hazeltine. The Chaska Town course is simply the companion course used to facilitate the 36 hole stoke play qualifier for the 312 players. 

[Matt_Cohn]

I think Jason was just observing that Hazeltine is not the most immediately compelling match play course. Obviously, they’re not going to use Chaska Town Course as the primary course for the US Amateur.

[Joel_Stewart]

My impression is that Hazeltine is exactly the type of course I despise, its long and hard and an example of the type of course on why I won't finish the US top 100. Add in Valhalla, Butler National, and a few others and I'm at 90. I'm now reconsidering Congressional and especially East Lake.

[Jason Topp]

Joel


Hazeltine is by no means my favorite course but when set up for normal play and played from a reasonable distance it is a worthwhile experience.  It has two great holes - 6 and 10, and a number of very good holes (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 13, 14, 16, and 17).  There is nothing offensive about the remaining holes, even if they fall short of inspirational.   I would argue that the greens are extremely good and the course is far more playable than many championship venues. 


I have never played the Lake Course at Olympic but from driving around it with Gib, I found little reason to think I could handle that course.   Hazeltine seems friendly by comparison. 



With the rough for this championship, I am glad I am not a member playing there regularly this year, but in a normal year, I have enjoyed my visits. 

[Jason Topp]

Good summary.
I was watching it last night and couldn't help but notice that virtually all of the "fairway" bunkers were buried in the rough and the few that were partially in the fairway were surrounded by 5 yards or more of rough.
Why aren't fairway bunkers actually in the fairway? Seems to me that it would be much more interesting if the fairway cut ran right into the bunker.
I'm not picking on Hazeltine as it seems like this typical of many American parkland courses.

John - I did not notice when I was there but you are correct.  I have no idea why they have all that rough.  It seems particularly odd between the bunkers and greens. 

[Peter Flory]

It's the most uneventful match play course that I can remember.  Just a lot of bomb and gouging and 2 putting. 

[Chris Hughes]

Bunkers are perfectly prepared/raked...

[Chris Hughes]

I was watching it last night and couldn't help but notice that virtually all of the "fairway" bunkers were buried in the rough and the few that were partially in the fairway were surrounded by 5 yards or more of rough.
 
Why aren't fairway bunkers actually in the fairway? Seems to me that it would be much more interesting if the fairway cut ran right into the bunker.

I'm not picking on Hazeltine as it seems like this typical of many American parkland courses.

This is what the USGA does, namely narrowing fairways for who knows why...


Bethpage Black is another glaring example of what you describe.  For the 2002 US Open they narrowed to the point many "fairway bunkers" were 10+ yards into the rough -- literally no way an errant drive would roll into one of those bunkers.


A perfect example is the right side of hole #11, bunkers basically out of play in the absence of a tee ball bombed wildly.


If they want to do that for the week, guess that's their prerogative.  But when the park stuck with that specific style of course prep going forward, it only exacerbated what was already a very lousy pace of play problem.


There were regular discussions surrounding the issue and park staff's conditioned response was "people are paying for the US Open experience"...which we thought was completely bogus. 

[Jason Thurman]

Jason, agree 100% on point 4 of your OP. Even my legendary golf hater wife enjoyed hanging at the 2011 US Am. More recently, I had a great morning at the Western Am at Moraine. High level amateur golf is the best spectator golf.

[Kyle Harris]

What does deep rough tell me that can't already be proven at a driving range or TopGolf?

[Adam Lawrence]

Golf architecture angle to the championship. Semi-finalist Noah Kent is the stepson of architect Dana Fry. Noah is nineteen, a sophomore at the University of Iowa, and it is his first USGA championship

[Phil Young]

Chris, the reason why Bethpage Black has maintained its U. s. Open widths ever since the 2002 U. S. Open wasdue to the Management deciding that they wanted to enable the average player to be able to "experience playing a U. S. Open course."
      Despite the efforts of some passionate lovers of Bethpage Black, and despit a letter sent to Bethpage and other "future U. S. Open sites" in 2007 by Mike Davis in which he strongly urged that after their courses held the U. S. Open that the course should be returned to its pre-Open condition especially the widths of the fairways, the Bethpage management decided to ignore that and continue its new tradition.       

[jeffwarne]

Chris, the reason why Bethpage Black has maintained its U. s. Open widths ever since the 2002 U. S. Open wasdue to the Management deciding that they wanted to enable the average player to be able to "experience playing a U. S. Open course."
      Despite the efforts of some passionate lovers of Bethpage Black, and despite a letter sent to Bethpage and other "future U. S. Open sites" in 2007 by Mike Davis in which he strongly urged that after their courses held the U. S. Open that the course should be returned to its pre-Open condition especially the widths of the fairways, the Bethpage management decided to ignore that and continue its new tradition.     

This.


I still enjoy The Red course quite a bit.

[JLahrman]

Jason, agree 100% on point 4 of your OP. Even my legendary golf hater wife enjoyed hanging at the 2011 US Am. More recently, I had a great morning at the Western Am at Moraine. High level amateur golf is the best spectator golf.

My wife hates golf. She's never played, doesn't want to play, and thinks I'm a dork for owning clubs, let alone posting on a site like this. However, she did see the 17th at Sawgrass on TV a few times this week, and launched into some pretty entertaining rants every time she noticed it. Here's a summary of her best quotes:

"I mean, what is even the point of that?!"

"So what happens? Does everybody just hit their ball in the water? What's that prove?"

"That's just completely artificial. Are they playing a joke on everybody? And why do they want to make everybody who plays it look like an idiot?"

"It looks like the Shire. Where are the hobbits?"

"Did you say 150,000 balls a year? That's like half a million dollars right? Golf courses are so wasteful."

"I just saw it and hated it. It's like that skanky girl you work with. I knew when I first saw her that she wasn't good. Movies about werewolves are in that category too. That's what this hole is."

"I mean, wouldn't it be better if instead of water, it was just a big depression? Because then you could at least find your ball and keep playing right?"

"So wait, this is like the last hole? Shouldn't it be more like the first hole? Because I'd be mad if I played that thing and lost a bunch of balls and then the round was over."

"Aren't golf balls expensive? I guess this course isn't expensive enough already."

Discuss.

How did I miss this? First of all, I agree with most of that. And secondly, can we get her a commentating gig? With the NLU guys, maybe? Or her own golf podcast? That is some A+ material!

[Chris Hughes]

Chris, the reason why Bethpage Black has maintained its U. s. Open widths ever since the 2002 U. S. Open wasdue to the Management deciding that they wanted to enable the average player to be able to "experience playing a U. S. Open course."
      Despite the efforts of some passionate lovers of Bethpage Black, and despit a letter sent to Bethpage and other "future U. S. Open sites" in 2007 by Mike Davis in which he strongly urged that after their courses held the U. S. Open that the course should be returned to its pre-Open condition especially the widths of the fairways, the Bethpage management decided to ignore that and continue its new tradition.     

Thanks Phil.


If you read the end of my post pretty sure I said exactly that.


Cheers mate...

[Peter Flory]

If Hazeltine had zero bunkers, would the scoring average in this Am be higher or lower? 

[Matt_Cohn]

If Hazeltine had zero bunkers, would the scoring average in this Am be higher or lower?

My guess is it would be a little harder without bunkers, assuming the bunker locations were all replaced with primary rough. Maybe a few of the fairway bunkers have high lips, I’m not sure, but you’re not usually right under them anyway.

[Jason Topp]

If Hazeltine had zero bunkers, would the scoring average in this Am be higher or lower?

My guess is it would be a little harder without bunkers, assuming the bunker locations were all replaced with primary rough. Maybe a few of the fairway bunkers have high lips, I’m not sure, but you’re not usually right under them anyway.

Rees Jones’ fairway bunkers are pretty deep but I agree that all rough would be more difficult. 

[Matt_Cohn]

If Hazeltine had zero bunkers, would the scoring average in this Am be higher or lower?

Two of my friends who played both agreed the scoring average would probably be a little higher.

[Kalen Braley]

Course selection and setup seems to be right out of the USGA playbook from the last few decades.

Long punishing holes - Check
Tight, pinched in fairway cuts - Check
Juicy gunch - Check
Firm greens - Mostly check, although have seen worse
Several greenside ponds - Bonus Check

As a match-play venue I guess drama is there with trying to save pars...

[Terry Lavin]

Glad I’m still watching. Not because I like the course, but this final match has been very compelling. I thought Kent was toast an hour ago, but there’s some drama happening.

[George Pazin]

Agreed on the compelling final. And what little I saw earlier was solid. Hazeltine looks like a course that doesn't necessarily wow you, but I think it would grow on you if you played it enough. It was less tree lined than I remembered, haven't been on here enough the last few years to know if it got the treatment, or if I'm just getting old and the memory is failing. The long slog aspect doesn't bother me, I'm not dumb enough to play the tips.


Looking forward to future venues.


Are there any threads on here about The Loop at Chaska (can't believe they called it that) or the Minnelayas? I used to be good at searching, I'm not as good anymore.