OT - Rules quesiton on TIO relief

[Wayne_Kozun]

There was a bit of controversy over TIO relief that Kuchar got today.  Have the rules ever had TIO relief structured in a way that you play your shot as normal, but if you hit the TIO you get to replay the shot?  My club has something like this as on 18 you have to hit over a road - there is a fence protecting the road and if you hit the fence you get to rehit without a penalty.

[Rob Marshall]

There was a bit of controversy over TIO relief that Kuchar got today.  Have the rules ever had TIO relief structured in a way that you play your shot as normal, but if you hit the TIO you get to replay the shot?  My club has something like this as on 18 you have to hit over a road - there is a fence protecting the road and if you hit the fence you get to rehit without a penalty.

At a course near my they have two holes where electrical wires cross the fairway. If you hit them you have to replay the shot. It's not optional.

[Tony_Muldoon]

There was a bit of controversy over TIO relief that Kuchar got today.  Have the rules ever had TIO relief structured in a way that you play your shot as normal, but if you hit the TIO you get to replay the shot?  My club has something like this as on 18 you have to hit over a road - there is a fence protecting the road and if you hit the fence you get to rehit without a penalty.

I  play a course with the same rule and I've never understood the rationale? 
It's not a deliberate act, so why don't I have a choice?

At a course near my they have two holes where electrical wires cross the fairway. If you hit them you have to replay the shot. It's not optional.

[Wayne_Kozun]

At a course near my they have two holes where electrical wires cross the fairway. If you hit them you have to replay the shot. It's not optional.

Exactly.  I have played courses with that as well.  Why don't they use this rule with things like scoreboards at tour events?

[jeffwarne]

At a course near my they have two holes where electrical wires cross the fairway. If you hit them you have to replay the shot. It's not optional.

Exactly.  I have played courses with that as well.  Why don't they use this rule with things like scoreboards at tour events?

While I hate the commonplace usage of the rule on tour, what if the scoreboard was exactly on your line and trajectory? and it was the only way to hit the required shot.
You can let me replay it all I want, but if it's dead in my way, sure I can avoid the TIO, but I may have no chance to hit it where it's a desirable outcome(an option that would've existed without the TIO). So now I'm forced to play it as near to the scoreboard/TIO as possible, and may need multiple tries due to how close I'm cutting it.
Frankly, I'd rather they do away with line of sight TIO and simply treat them as obstructions, and PERHAPS give a bit more thought about where they are placed and their potential impact on play.


Rules are hard, and almost every attempt to "simplify" them has led to unintended consequences as well as confusion amongst those who once knew and understood the rules.
Perfect example: hitting a ball accidentally off a tee being no penalty made perfect sense if you knew the definitions.
But now, they've decided that hitting a ball accidentally on a green is an exception to the penalty for a player moving a ball. An exception that must be memorized, as opposed to simply knowing the rule and the definitions. (which sadly, few people bother to learn)

[Wayne_Kozun]

Good point about trajectory.  When you say treat them as obstructions what does that mean?  Why can't you treat them like a tree or a mound?  Or is that what you mean by obstruction.

[jeffwarne]

Good point about trajectory.  When you say treat them as obstructions what does that mean?  Why can't you treat them like a tree or a mound?  Or is that what you mean by obstruction.

An obstruction is a permanent structure, where relief is given for stance or swing, not line of sight.
TIO's get line of sight, because they are usually not there.
Interestingly we have some new art behind a green we are treating as an obstruction and many simply can't undertand that it is an obstruction, not a TIO. It's not going anywhere

[Kalen Braley]

Good point about trajectory.  When you say treat them as obstructions what does that mean?  Why can't you treat them like a tree or a mound?  Or is that what you mean by obstruction.

An obstruction is a permanent structure, where relief is given for stance or swing, not line of sight.
TIO's get line of sight, because they are usually not there.
Interestingly we have some new art behind a green we are treating as an obstruction and many simply can't undertand that it is an obstruction, not a TIO. It's not going anywhere

Jeff,

This raises an interesting question, one that happened to me years ago in a casual round.

I hit my tee ball behind a pump house and it ended up far enough away from it that I could still take a normal stance and swing, but was close enough that it still obstructed my flight path to the hole.  I took relief in this case, was that the incorrect ruling?

[Rob Marshall]

Good point about trajectory.  When you say treat them as obstructions what does that mean?  Why can't you treat them like a tree or a mound?  Or is that what you mean by obstruction.

An obstruction is a permanent structure, where relief is given for stance or swing, not line of sight.
TIO's get line of sight, because they are usually not there.
Interestingly we have some new art behind a green we are treating as an obstruction and many simply can't undertand that it is an obstruction, not a TIO. It's not going anywhere

Jeff,

This raises an interesting question, one that happened to me years ago in a casual round.

I hit my tee ball behind a pump house and it ended up far enough away from it that I could still take a normal stance and swing, but was close enough that it still obstructed my flight path to the hole.  I took relief in this case, was that the incorrect ruling?

Nope, if you have a stance and a swing. No free relief.

[JohnVDB]

Wayne, an obstruction is a man-made object not a mound or a tree.
Here is a quote from Model Local Rule F-23 - Temporary Immovable Obstructions

When obstructions are temporarily placed on or next to the course, the Committee should specify whether they are movable obstructions (see Rule 15.2), immovable obstructions (see Rule 16.1) or temporary immovable obstructions (“TIOs”).
TIOs (such as a grandstand or a tent) are not normally present and are not considered to be part of the challenge of playing the course.

...

The additional relief provided by this Local Rule includes the ability for a player to take relief when the TIO is located on the straight line between their ball and the hole (known as “line of sight relief”) by moving sideways, keeping the same distance from the hole, so that the TIO is no longer between the player’s ball and the hole (also known as moving along the “equidistant arc”).

I left out the part that says if you have physical interference, you get complete relief as you would from a regular immovable obstruction (although you can get a little extra for a TIO).
There are times when you can't get relief. For example, you can't play a shot that would reach the TIO either because it was too far away, a tree was right in front of your ball or you ball was in a bush and you couldn't hit the ball.

Wayne asked about only giving relief when your ball hits the TIO. If you were behind it and couldn't see the flagstick you should get relief whether you hit it or not as you can't see where you are going.  We shouldn't be adding blindness to an otherwise open hole by building a grandstand or scoreboard in the way. Think about the giant grandstands at the Open Championship and if you were behind one on an otherwise flat links course.

This is different than items that are permanently in place like the fence that Wayne mentioned or the wires that Rob mentioned.  Those can be covered by Model Local Rule E-11 (for the wires) or a similar one written by the Committee for the fence. When something like this crosses the entire line of play, there is no way to play around it unlike normal obstructions such as Kalen's pump house where you can play around it and must have physical interference to get relief, this MLR will give you relief if you hit the wire because you really can't avoid it  (Kalen, you shouldn't have taken relief).  E-11 covers a situation where you ball is in motion and is deflected whereas  F-23 covers when your ball is at rest and the obstruction is in your way. Note that there is a MLR (F-22) that covers temporary wires and power lines. It treats elevated lines the same as E-11 but also talks about ones that are on the ground and only gives relief for physical interference.

All of this is a very complicated topic and it can get quite tricky. I definitely didn't cover all of the MLR or the full reasoning but hope this gives some understanding.

[Kalen Braley]

Thanks for the details all, will know better going forward.


Kalen

[Matt_Cohn]

There was a bit of controversy over TIO relief that Kuchar got today.  Have the rules ever had TIO relief structured in a way that you play your shot as normal, but if you hit the TIO you get to replay the shot?  My club has something like this as on 18 you have to hit over a road - there is a fence protecting the road and if you hit the fence you get to rehit without a penalty.

I think the current version of the rule seems consistent with the rules in general: you deserve a fair chance to play your shot free from interference. But if you have that chance and your shot hits something, that's your own fault.

[Jim Hoak]

I think the important distinction here is between Temporary Immovable Obstructions and Immovable Obstructions. 
Power lines are not Temporary, so hitting them may require a special local rule to allow a replay of a shot.  But Temporary Immovable Obstructions in place only for the tournament need a universal rule allowing for a shot clear of them as Matt Cohn says. 
I think the current rule is fine as written, as Matt says.

[JohnVDB]

There was a bit of controversy over TIO relief that Kuchar got today.  Have the rules ever had TIO relief structured in a way that you play your shot as normal, but if you hit the TIO you get to replay the shot?  My club has something like this as on 18 you have to hit over a road - there is a fence protecting the road and if you hit the fence you get to rehit without a penalty.

I think the current version of the rule seems consistent with the rules in general: you deserve a fair chance to play your shot free from interference. But if you have that chance and your shot hits something, that's your own fault.

Well said Matt.  There were a number of changes in 2019 which helped.  A major one was when a player has physical interference the player can use the TIO Rule or the normal obstruction Rule.  This was a great change to protect the player who takes relief on his own and accidentally used the Abnormal Course Conditions Rule 16-1 rather than the MLR.