Fairway bunkers positions on Open courses

[Ben Stephens]

Dear GCA,


Does it seem that the fairway bunkers are mostly in clusters around driver and 3 wood distances that the pros are literally taking them out of play (possibly influenced by Tiger's play in 2006 Open at Hoylake)


Having watched the Open in recent years there seems to be more of a pattern of using long to mid irons off the tees to the wider part of the fairway, being too conservative and a longer second shot to the green to avoid the pot bunkers.


Xander won because he drove the ball very well and was more aggressive off the tee which enabled his second shots to be shorter and easier to get close which gave him more puttable birdies than the rest of the field yesterday - like Ernie was at Lytham when Adam Scott was a bit too conservative apart from his clanger on 18th. 


Question - should there be more shorter fairway bunkers and the lay up area be tighter in future Opens?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ben,


What you highlight is part of the homogenisation of links courses that comes from using the same architects, opinions and general thought process across all the Open courses.


Where bunker positions are changed, you will very often see the standard trope being applied of bunkers right and bunkers left +30 yards further on. This on the basis that the draw / hook travels further than the fade / slice.


When working with the different winds you get on links courses, this actually is quite a good bunker pattern. But to your point, it is all about catching people at a certain distance / turning point.


Variety - or even the chaos theory of bunker placement - could work just as well for the pro’s; and certainly would provide more interest for the everyday player.

[Niall C]

Ben


They had a choice, take on the bunkers or lay up to avoid them. What you seem to be advocating is taking that choice away by making them take on bunkers whatever.


As it was, some did and others didn't. Schauffle didn't go driver all the time and frankly I thought it was brilliant the way the different players came up with different solutions to the problems they were posed. Lets have more of it please.


Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

I thought it was a good championship. Lots of options, a few gambled, a great 65 final day to win, probs equal to Henrik's 62 bearing in mind the conditions. I like the bunkering as a general pattern to slow down the ball a little, create that option but it can get very repetitive.


I am starting to turn away from the Ebert-MacKenzie way as it has got very repetitive now with the out of play scrapes. Repetitive is boring. Variety is the key.


All the courses are like the same girl in the same dress but the dress is just a slightly different colour.


You only got so many times you can do the same thing. The CC TD GH don't seem to be on REPEAT mode.

[Tom_Doak]

It's not just the architects who think all the courses should be bunkered the same -- it's the R & A Championship Committee and the PGA TOUR, and they are the ones who are calling the shots.  Do not think for a minute that any of the clubs have much say in where these bunkers are being added -- they are clearly not for member play.


If they hired Ben Stephens or Clyde Johnson to work at Sandwich, it would be because they were willing to agree with the Championship Committee, although they might get to make some additional suggestions.


The prevailing wisdom is that the driver should be tested and there shouldn't be any holes where you just let players bang it down one side with no bunkers in play, because they aren't worried about the rough [!] and that just lets them pound driver as hard as they can.


The one thing we did differently at The Renaissance Club was to build some choppy contours instead of another bunker down the right of the second hole, that gives the players an odd stance out of the rough with a fairly long approach -- that was based on something Brooks Koepka had suggested for Memorial Park.  Harrington thinks that is the best change we made there, because a lot of the players just think there is no bunker and they should swing away, and they do pay a price.  You could probably find the same thing by realigning some of the fairways, if you were looking for it, but now that they have irrigation systems that's harder to adjust.

[James Reader]

I am starting to turn away from the Ebert-MacKenzie way as it has got very repetitive now with the out of play scrapes. Repetitive is boring. Variety is the key.

Somewhat surprisingly the only person the scrape on the 18th wasn’t out of play for was the world no.1. I bet giving Scheffler somewhere to drop after a 175 yard smother hook with an iron wasn’t part of their design intent!

[Ally Mcintosh]

I am starting to turn away from the Ebert-MacKenzie way as it has got very repetitive now with the out of play scrapes. Repetitive is boring. Variety is the key.

Somewhat surprisingly the only person the scrape on the 18th wasn’t out of play for was the world no.1. I bet giving Scheffler somewhere to drop after a 175 yard smother hook with an iron wasn’t part of their design intent!

151 yards, 26’ apex. It was great to see.

[Niall C]

151 yards, 26’ apex. It was great to see.

I can do that..........if I connect properly !


Niall

[Ben Stephens]

151 yards, 26’ apex. It was great to see.

I can do that..........if I connect properly !


Niall

Did you see the Fried Egg commenting on the difference between Sky Sports and US TV top tracer. Sky was pinpoint correct and the US version had Scheffler right fairway about 250 yards which was way off the charts and made it laughable.


Its probably a good thing for Scheffler to drop into the sandy waste area had that not been there could he have played his tee shot again?

[Ben Stephens]

It's not just the architects who think all the courses should be bunkered the same -- it's the R & A Championship Committee and the PGA TOUR, and they are the ones who are calling the shots.  Do not think for a minute that any of the clubs have much say in where these bunkers are being added -- they are clearly not for member play.


If they hired Ben Stephens or Clyde Johnson to work at Sandwich, it would be because they were willing to agree with the Championship Committee, although they might get to make some additional suggestions.


The prevailing wisdom is that the driver should be tested and there shouldn't be any holes where you just let players bang it down one side with no bunkers in play, because they aren't worried about the rough [!] and that just lets them pound driver as hard as they can.


The one thing we did differently at The Renaissance Club was to build some choppy contours instead of another bunker down the right of the second hole, that gives the players an odd stance out of the rough with a fairly long approach -- that was based on something Brooks Koepka had suggested for Memorial Park.  Harrington thinks that is the best change we made there, because a lot of the players just think there is no bunker and they should swing away, and they do pay a price.  You could probably find the same thing by realigning some of the fairways, if you were looking for it, but now that they have irrigation systems that's harder to adjust.

Regarding fairway lines - they have narrowed a number of fairways at JCB for this weeks LIV golf event.


Could we see in future more hazards and narrower fairways in the shorter areas from the tee that the pros hit in the Open - at Carnoustie you have Braids Bunker a central bunker on the 2nd which is more like 200 yards from the tees will be interesting to see how the seniors play it.


Has anyone here played Royal Copenhagen - the rough there was fascinating as the ground has been left untouched for 400 years and there is 2000 deer on the park that help to maintain the rough. The ground surface was so uneven and it looked like a number of termite mounds of varying sizes which lead to awkward stances. Also the course is chemical free and was in unbelievable condition.

[Dan_Callahan]

Given the bunker placement and depth, what I thought was amazing was the number of times these guys drove into fairway bunkers and were still able to put their second shots on the green. Seemed to happen routinely on the first hole. Very rare to see something happen like what Lawrence experienced on 18 on Sunday, when he drilled his second directly into the face. I feel like in past Opens, it was far more common to see players coming out of bunkers sideways or even backwards. The lack of that this year ... was that because the bunkers weren't as severe or the players are just better able to launch it straight up in the air?

[Thomas Dai]

Has anyone here played Royal Copenhagen - the rough there was fascinating as the ground has been left untouched for 400 years and there is 2000 deer on the park that help to maintain the rough. The ground surface was so uneven and it looked like a number of termite mounds of varying sizes which lead to awkward stances. Also the course is chemical free and was in unbelievable condition.

Sounds similar to the wee ground mounds at Kington and a few other animal grazed or ex-animal grazed hilltop courses. The wee bumps at Kington are supposed to be former ant hills from a long time ago. Quite soft and spongy although they seem to be full of dusty material if you wack a club into one.
Be interesting to see the outcome if a harrow or something similar was run across them.
Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

We played Royal Copenhagen in 2013 on the way to Malmo. I thought it was a very special place.

[Mark Pearce]

Ben


They had a choice, take on the bunkers or lay up to avoid them. What you seem to be advocating is taking that choice away by making them take on bunkers whatever.


As it was, some did and others didn't. Schauffle didn't go driver all the time and frankly I thought it was brilliant the way the different players came up with different solutions to the problems they were posed. Lets have more of it please.


Niall

Exactly what I thought when I read Ben's post.

[Ben Stephens]

We played Royal Copenhagen in 2013 on the way to Malmo. I thought it was a very special place.

I played with Tom Mackenzie and two others at Royal Copenhagen got an insight of the work that Tom did 10 years ago which I think is one of the best work he has done - it was done subtly. Tom mentioned that he played Sandwich two weeks before and the greens were on par with each other


One of the oddities is that the car park is a 15-20 mins walk to the clubhouse which was nice and different - even the King of Denmark insisted he walks to the clubhouse

[Ben Stephens]

Ben


They had a choice, take on the bunkers or lay up to avoid them. What you seem to be advocating is taking that choice away by making them take on bunkers whatever.


As it was, some did and others didn't. Schauffle didn't go driver all the time and frankly I thought it was brilliant the way the different players came up with different solutions to the problems they were posed. Lets have more of it please.


Niall

Exactly what I thought when I read Ben's post.

If you see older aerials (via Google Earth etc) of the fairway widths of Troon and the shorter areas were the same widths as the corridors through the bunkers unlike today where it is wider away from the fairway bunkers. Surely accuracy is a premium in the Open irrelevant of how far you hit it.

[Niall C]

Ben


If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that the pinch points are the same width as they were previously but the non-pinch points are wider ? If that's correct, is that not a function of them making sure that the fairway bunkers had fairway leading up to them rather than rough, thereby actually making them easier to get in to ? Surely that makes it harder ?


Don't get me wrong I'm old school. I'm fully on board with having days where it is all about keeping the ball in play. Whenever I hear some rater complaining that the fairways should be twice as wide just because the wind speed has got up above a mild zephyr I think why don't they get back on the plane and bugger off back to the nice 400 acre open parkland course that they came from. But of course I'm too polite to voice such opinions on here.


As an aside, I think it was Saturday morning when Sky showed a graphic of the days pin positions and it was noticeable how tucked in they were. Clearly angles counted irrespective of whether you were on the fairway or not. As another aside, one of the talking heads suggested that Troon had the smallest greens on the Open rota. I don't know if that is true but interesting thought.


Niall 

[Michael Felton]

It's not just the architects who think all the courses should be bunkered the same -- it's the R & A Championship Committee and the PGA TOUR, and they are the ones who are calling the shots.  Do not think for a minute that any of the clubs have much say in where these bunkers are being added -- they are clearly not for member play.


If they hired Ben Stephens or Clyde Johnson to work at Sandwich, it would be because they were willing to agree with the Championship Committee, although they might get to make some additional suggestions.


The prevailing wisdom is that the driver should be tested and there shouldn't be any holes where you just let players bang it down one side with no bunkers in play, because they aren't worried about the rough [!] and that just lets them pound driver as hard as they can.


The one thing we did differently at The Renaissance Club was to build some choppy contours instead of another bunker down the right of the second hole, that gives the players an odd stance out of the rough with a fairly long approach -- that was based on something Brooks Koepka had suggested for Memorial Park.  Harrington thinks that is the best change we made there, because a lot of the players just think there is no bunker and they should swing away, and they do pay a price.  You could probably find the same thing by realigning some of the fairways, if you were looking for it, but now that they have irrigation systems that's harder to adjust.

Sandwich is quite a lot like that isn't it? With bunkers on one side and uneven ground on the other? 5, 7, 8, 9, 10 are all like that I think (although 9 and 10 the bunkers are pretty short). There aren't that many holes that have bunkers on both sides - certainly bunkers that affect the pros - 13 and 15 are basically it aren't they? I guess 18 as well if it's downwind, but the bunker on the right is about 325 yards from the back tee. Even 15 the right bunkers are further up than the left ones.

[John Mayhugh]

All the courses are like the same girl in the same dress but the dress is just a slightly different colour.

I'm going to borrow this. With attribution!

[Kalen Braley]

All the courses are like the same girl in the same dress but the dress is just a slightly different colour.

I'm going to borrow this. With attribution!

Not to put Adrian on the spot,

But is anyone going to confuse Royal Portrush with TOC? 

[Sean_A]

All the courses are like the same girl in the same dress but the dress is just a slightly different colour.

I'm going to borrow this. With attribution!

Not to put Adrian on the spot,

But is anyone going to confuse Royal Portrush with TOC?

I agree. The Open courses have quite different character to each other. I think what has been happening through my lifetime is that changes have made them more similar. Most notably fairway shrinkage, more managed rough, more similar bunker style and placement and similar conditions. More and more these days anyone associated with The Open or host clubs sings from the same song sheet.

It’s not all doom and gloom though. Turnberry is a better course today than 25 years ago. That’s a serious standout success. On the lesser stage I think Hillside and Southport& Ainsdale are better courses now than 25 years ago. I strongly suspect the same is true of Princes. It was certainly getting better, but I haven’t seen the latest finished work.

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

I worked at both Hoylake and Troon for IMG providing the World Feed TV coverage. My role is to stand in the rough by the landing zone of a designated fairway as each group came through with a big microphone and to walk to each ball in turn to record the sound of the second shot.


It was noticeable at both the most recent Opens that very few players were taking on the fairway bunkers. Those that did and succeeded in avoiding them gained a huge advantage (up to 100 yards) but the penalty for finding a bunker was a chip out sideways.


Clearly the intent was to reduce driving distance and to a large degree this was successful. My feeling however, was that it also made the spectacle less interesting as most drives were bunched together in the fairway just short of the flanking bunkers which were placed at around the 300 yard mark.


It all became a little formulaic. I would prefer to see a more eclectic mix of bunker positions at different distances from the tee to challenge accuracy as much as distance and to tempt more players into making a bold but potentially unwise decision from the tee.


I’m looking forward to working at Portrush next year!

[Adrian_Stiff]

All the courses are like the same girl in the same dress but the dress is just a slightly different colour.

I'm going to borrow this. With attribution!

Not to put Adrian on the spot,

But is anyone going to confuse Royal Portrush with TOC?

TOC is still very different because they have not changed much, hence its not the same. You get bunkers one day you can fly and other times you can't. That too me is what links golf should be. Let them drive 425 yards sometimes ffs. Let them shoot 59.

[Mark_Fine]

Probably already been mentioned by some who played these courses often but what is magical about most links course bunkers is how they seem to move around with the weather A bunker or bunker complex that is in play one day is completely out a reach another or not even seen because you can fly right over it.  I can cite countless examples but I recall playing #10 at The Old Course - driver/two putt one day and driver/5I a day later.  The fairway bunkers magically changed their positions in one day

[Niall C]

Probably already been mentioned by some who played these courses often but what is magical about most links course bunkers is how they seem to move around with the weather A bunker or bunker complex that is in play one day is completely out a reach another or not even seen because you can fly right over it.  I can cite countless examples but I recall playing #10 at The Old Course - driver/two putt one day and driver//5I a day later.  The fairway bunkers magically changed their positions in one day