OT-PCC Handicap adjustment/re-rating

[Rob Marshall]

I sent the USGA an email yesterday asking if other courses are seeing the same increases (8 times more) due to the algorithm change. Here this the reply:


"We are monitoring all PCCs from around the country and the AGAs are also watching their courses to see if there is anything that may need to be addressed. The RDGA is your best resource since they have a better pulse on the courses in their jurisdiction."

Wealth of information.................

[John Kavanaugh]

So much secrecy.

[Charlie Goerges]

As Mark Twain said, "Do not attribute to secrecy that which can be explained by just not giving a shit."

[Kalen Braley]

Rob,

Maybe your club has a higher percentage of vanity cappers than most?

Instead of taking proper drops and correctly tallying all their putts, perhaps their aggregates are consistently coming in lower than expected....

[Rob Marshall]

Rob,

Maybe your club has a higher percentage of vanity cappers than most?

Instead of taking proper drops and correctly tallying all their putts, perhaps their aggregates are consistently coming in lower than expected....

They wouldn’t become vanity handicappers starting in 2024. The algorithm had a “minor change” and now we’ve had an 8x increase? I have a call with our “allied golf association” tomorrow. I’m sure they will be as much help as the USGA…..


What amazes me is that the USGA has all the data yet they can’t or won’t tell be if the numbers look skewed to them or say if the difference year to year makes sense with the change to the algorithm.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

They wouldn’t become vanity handicappers starting in 2024. The algorithm had a “minor change” and now we’ve had an 8x increase?

Your 8x increase is not reflective of what's being seen elsewhere.

What amazes me is that the USGA has all the data yet they can’t or won’t tell be if the numbers look skewed to them or say if the difference year to year makes sense with the change to the algorithm.

Just because they don't share with you doesn't mean they don't have info.

[Rob Marshall]

“Just because they don't share with you doesn't mean they don't have info.”


I said they have the data and aren’t sharing it…….


“Your 8x increase is not reflective of what's being seen elsewhere.“



According to the RDGA it is, which is why I have another call with them tomorrow.

[Rob Marshall]

Our allied association told me today that our 8x factor is not out of line with other clubs. So much for a “minor change”. I’ve beat this to death and came away with really no answers.

[Carl Johnson]

Rob, thanks for your efforts.  I hope you keep at it.  One would think the USGA and the associations would want to be open about the process, but from what you report that seems to be questionable.

[Rob Marshall]

I asked our local association if at the end of the year they report the data to the USGA and I couldn’t really get a straight answer on that. Personally I think our course is rated harder than it is so maybe this is a back door way to correct that.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I asked our local association if at the end of the year they report the data to the USGA and I couldn’t really get a straight answer on that. Personally I think our course is rated harder than it is so maybe this is a back door way to correct that.

They don't have to report it. They already have it. They know what scores are posted, what PCCs are given out, etc. They are the ruling body, and the ones in charge of all of this. They have ALL of the data.

My AGA is not seeing 8x (and my club is about the same as last year in terms of the number of PCCs overall). I talked with someone at another AGA and they've seen a small decrease in PCCs (with a small increase in -1s) this year over last.

[Rob Marshall]

I asked our local association if at the end of the year they report the data to the USGA and I couldn’t really get a straight answer on that. Personally I think our course is rated harder than it is so maybe this is a back door way to correct that.

They don't have to report it. They already have it. They know what scores are posted, what PCCs are given out, etc. They are the ruling body, and the ones in charge of all of this. They have ALL of the data.

My AGA is not seeing 8x (and my club is about the same as last year in terms of the number of PCCs overall). I talked with someone at another AGA and they've seen a small decrease in PCCs (with a small increase in -1s) this year over last.

I know they have the data, however the USGA keeps pushing it on to the Allied Association. Because they have the data doesn’t mean they review specific geographical areas. That’s why Cindy from the USGA pushed it on to our Allied Association. She said they have a better understanding of the regional courses.


By data I meant report the abnormalities they are seeing if any. Not the daily PCC adjustments that are pulled from the GHIN system. Frankly the USGA didn’t even want to hear about it from me. I got the impression that they want the Allied Associations to bring potential issues to them, not individual courses. Which probably makes sense.


Bottom line is they don’t think an 8x increase is a big deal or they just don’t care, imo.

[Kalen Braley]

Rob,

I'm with you 100% on this.  An 8X increase has gotta be significant, even if the responsible agencies are blowing you off for <insert reason here>

Admitting you got something wrong or created a problem is tough, especially so when its an organized group(s).  Keep pushing and the updates flowing!

[John Kavanaugh]

It’s not passing the smell test. Reminds me of the last days of internet poker.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Has anyone in Canada seen PCCs applied to their score?  I have 19 scores entered in Canada and 10 from Florida in 2024.  When I look at the Handicap Calculation web page it says:
No PCC adjustments applied.

[Rob Marshall]

Has anyone in Canada seen PCCs applied to their score?  I have 19 scores entered in Canada and 10 from Florida in 2024.  When I look at the Handicap Calculation web page it says:
No PCC adjustments applied.

I had none on 30 rounds in Florida Jan-May 15th.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Bottom line is they don’t think an 8x increase is a big deal or they just don’t care, imo.

Where is the "8x increase" coming from again? Is it from 2 becoming 16?

The increase across the U.S. is nowhere near 8x. Or 5x. It may not even be a multiple at all.

“ There was a minor adjustment in the tolerances for all PCC's- upward and downward so that could be resulting in a minor increase in the number.”

[Carl Johnson]

Has anyone in Canada seen PCCs applied to their score?  I have 19 scores entered in Canada and 10 from Florida in 2024.  When I look at the Handicap Calculation web page it says:
No PCC adjustments applied.

I had none on 30 rounds in Florida Jan-May 15th.

In 20 rounds May 23 to July 23, 2024, I had six -1 adjustments (five on home course in North Carolina and one on a public in South Carolina).  A fellow club member went over to play in Ireland June 16 to 22.  He had four +1 days at different courses and a +3 at Lahinch on June 21.

[Bryan Izatt]

Has anyone in Canada seen PCCs applied to their score?  I have 19 scores entered in Canada and 10 from Florida in 2024.  When I look at the Handicap Calculation web page it says:
No PCC adjustments applied.

I have had 2 PCC's out of about 200 rounds in the last two years in Ontario, so it is applied.  In 50 rounds in Florida, I had 3 PCC adjustments.


My guess on why there are not more is that perhaps many players are not so diligent about posting their scores before midnight on the day of play and so they don't get counted.  And, lots of people are playing casual rounds and don't post at all meaning many days there might not even be the minimum 8 scores posted.  Even in our men's night here in Ontario and using Golf Genius for scoring, the club often doesn't upload the scores until a few days later.  Even if the PCC is diligently applied as intended, it makes a minimal difference in your handicap.

[Rob Marshall]

Bottom line is they don’t think an 8x increase is a big deal or they just don’t care, imo.

Where is the "8x increase" coming from again? Is it from 2 becoming 16?

The increase across the U.S. is nowhere near 8x. Or 5x. It may not even be a multiple at all.

“ There was a minor adjustment in the tolerances for all PCC's- upward and downward so that could be resulting in a minor increase in the number.”

Yes 2 to 16. If what you say is true why wouldn’t the USGA say that? The RDGA our Allied is telling me our local clubs are seeing the same.

[Rob Marshall]

Has anyone in Canada seen PCCs applied to their score?  I have 19 scores entered in Canada and 10 from Florida in 2024.  When I look at the Handicap Calculation web page it says:
No PCC adjustments applied.

I had none on 30 rounds in Florida Jan-May 15th.

In 20 rounds May 23 to July 23, 2024, I had six -1 adjustments (five on home course in North Carolina and one on a public in South Carolina).  A fellow club member went over to play in Ireland June 16 to 22.  He had four +1 days at different courses and a +3 at Lahinch on June 21.

Carl, you club can print a report for 2023 and 2024 so you can see all the days. Not just the ones you played.

[Rob Marshall]

Has anyone in Canada seen PCCs applied to their score?  I have 19 scores entered in Canada and 10 from Florida in 2024.  When I look at the Handicap Calculation web page it says:
No PCC adjustments applied.

I have had 2 PCC's out of about 200 rounds in the last two years in Ontario, so it is applied.  In 50 rounds in Florida, I had 3 PCC adjustments.


My guess on why there are not more is that perhaps many players are not so diligent about posting their scores before midnight on the day of play and so they don't get counted.  And, lots of people are playing casual rounds and don't post at all meaning many days there might not even be the minimum 8 scores posted.  Even in our men's night here in Ontario and using Golf Genius for scoring, the club often doesn't upload the scores until a few days later.  Even if the PCC is diligently applied as intended, it makes a minimal difference in your handicap.

 Bryan,
4 of my 8 scores being used today have a -1. If I don’t shoot even par today it will be 5 of 8 tomorrow. My index is low enough that I’m sure I’m getting an extra stroke. Not sure what you consider minimal.


Erik is saying one thing and the USGA and our Allied are saying another.

[Jim Hoak]

Rob, I'm with Erik on this.  Your Club--and maybe your region--are the outliers, I believe.  I am seeing a slight decrease in my club and area in PCC's. 
We need to all stop looking at some conspiracy theory about the USGA every time we see something we don't like.  It is entirely appropriate to have the regions give them the actual facts before they act on a national basis. 
I am guessing it isn't a national problem.  But if it is, they can act when they know. 
Sometimes "secrecy" is just prudent action, waiting till the actual facts are known.

[A.G._Crockett]

Rob, I'm with Erik on this.  Your Club--and maybe your region--are the outliers, I believe.  I am seeing a decrease in my club and area in PCC's. 
We need to all stop looking at some conspiracy theory about the USGA every time we see something we don't like.  It is entirely appropriate to have the regions give them the actual facts before they act on a national basis. 
I am guessing it isn't a national problem.  But if it is, they can act when they know. 
Sometimes "secrecy" is just prudent action, waiting till the actual facts are known.

I agree, Jim. 


What Rob is reporting is nothing like what I’ve seen this year.  What I HAVE seen is a slight but noticeable decrease in the + PCCs in tournament rounds I’ve played, and an equally noticeable increase in the PCCs in “casual” play at my club. YTD, there has been a net increase of 3 PCCs in my posted rounds from last year to this, and that’s out of about 100 rounds YTD both years.


The net of all of that is that I have no trouble believing the USGA when they say they have tweaked the algorithm.  I’d expect nothing less of them.  I am, of course, an unabashed fan of the WHS (and course raters!) so I’m probably predisposed to give the benefit of the doubt on this.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Has anyone in Canada seen PCCs applied to their score?  I have 19 scores entered in Canada and 10 from Florida in 2024.  When I look at the Handicap Calculation web page it says:
No PCC adjustments applied.

I have had 2 PCC's out of about 200 rounds in the last two years in Ontario, so it is applied.  In 50 rounds in Florida, I had 3 PCC adjustments.

Thanks Bryan - how do you see the PCC adjustment on rounds that are not on your last 20 rounds?  I was going from the Handicap Calculation page of the Golf Canada handicapping site.  I see the Adj column but that doesn't appear to be the PCC.