Best unwalkable course?

[JHoulihan]

Ben Cowan and The Walking Golfer website describe red courses listed as "course is essentially unwalkable."


Although I may dispute the colors assigned to others listed, Gold Canyon Dinosaur Mountain is listed as red and is the toughest I have played/attempted to walk. I made it to hole 6 or 7 green and began to walk uphill to the next tee. Around the corner came a marshall and a cart and I thanked him profusely. I am not sure it is Top 100/200 worthy, but I did finish the round with a cart.


Those whom have played here, how would you rate this course personally?


Is this the toughest walking course in AZ?


Justin in AZ

[Paul Jones]

I was very disappointed that I was not able to walk Cabot St Lucia. Did not like the route of the cart paths on a couple of holes where you could not see the actual hole.  It is hard for me to love a course I cannot walk. 

[Stewart Abramson]

Ben Cowan and The Walking Golfer website describe red courses listed as "course is essentially unwalkable."


Although I may dispute the colors assigned to others listed, Gold Canyon Dinosaur Mountain is listed as red and is the toughest I have played/attempted to walk. I made it to hole 6 or 7 green and began to walk uphill to the next tee. Around the corner came a marshall and a cart and I thanked him profusely. I am not sure it is Top 100/200 worthy, but I did finish the round with a cart.


Those whom have played here, how would you rate this course personally?


Is this the toughest walking course in AZ?


Justin in AZ

Justin, I have no idea if it's the toughest walk. I played it a couple times many years ago and rode both rounds. I'd say the course is a DS 4 for the golf, a 7 on  the eye candy scale and a 1 on the walkability scale. Here's a link to photos: [size=78%]https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157631874374579/[/size]


Edit - I just checked the course is also a DS 4 in the Confidential Guide

[Jim O’Kane]

I feel like Kapalua would be walkable so long as you were able to take a shuttle from 5 to 6 and 9 to 10.  Pretty sure that's what they do for the pros. Hard to call a place unwalkable that the pros routinely walk (with some help).


Greywalls felt like it would be a pretty difficult walk, but there also looked like there were some decent shortcuts that would make it a bit easier provided someone gave you a ride to the first tee.

Bill, hello. Out of curiosity, any relation to Nick Seitz, the SI guy who also wrote the book "Teed Off" about Dave Hill? Fantastic book.

Hi Jim.  No relation.  It seems like I have one of those last names where everyone knows or knows of almost exactly one Seitz, so it's not altogether uncommon, but uncommon enough that I often get asked if I'm related to the one other Seitz they know.  I do have a picture of myself standing next to his parking space at Augusta, though. 

Thanks for the reply Bill! That is most awesome! I never knew there were marked or reserved parking spaces at AGNC. The one time I was fortunate enough to go, I did not venture over to that part of the property. If there's a next time...
Thanks again for the reply.

[Cal Carlisle]

I love to walk, but I would not consider doing that at Mountaintop Golf and Lake Club.

I didn't mind walking Landmand, but I could see how the lack of shade would give someone pause for thought on a hot, day with no clouds.

[Ian Andrew]

I was giving this topic and thought and realize that everything is walkable. As someone who does long distance hikes, it really comes down to whether you can’t make the short steep climbs.


I’ve walked 36 holes at Highland Links. That’s an unusually long walk, but not hard, because it’s mostly about distance. An extra kilometre or two is not a big deal unless you have physical issues.


Capilano with Vancouver has a 360 foot elevation difference from the ninth to the 15th screen. It’s very walkable. Surprising really. To me that’s proof that it’s not about elevation either.


I think what comes down to is actually about how steep and how fast you have to go up. And for me personally, how much you have to walk down steep slopes. I personally find that much harder.


When the routing Is long between holes, with large elevation changes, that is where I lose my desire to walk it. That’s the golf course that makes the definition for me. 


But honestly, everything is walkable, even those most miserable cart golf course I’ve ever seen. And I’ve walked a few of them anyway.

[Michael Felton]

I was giving this topic and thought and realize that everything is walkable. As someone who does long distance hikes, it really comes down to whether you can’t make the short steep climbs.


I’ve walked 36 holes at Highland Links. That’s an unusually long walk, but not hard, because it’s mostly about distance. An extra kilometre or two is not a big deal unless you have physical issues.


Capilano with Vancouver has a 360 foot elevation difference from the ninth to the 15th screen. It’s very walkable. Surprising really. To me that’s proof that it’s not about elevation either.


I think what comes down to is actually about how steep and how fast you have to go up. And for me personally, how much you have to walk down steep slopes. I personally find that much harder.


When the routing Is long between holes, with large elevation changes, that is where I lose my desire to walk it. That’s the golf course that makes the definition for me. 


But honestly, everything is walkable, even those most miserable cart golf course I’ve ever seen. And I’ve walked a few of them anyway.

To me, unwalkable is really if a course has such a long distance from one green to the next tee that if you're walking, a cart foursome behind you will catch you up before you make it to the next tee. The Ocean Course at Kiawah is about 1000 yards from 9 green to 10 tee. At 3mph walking speed, that's about 11 minutes. At 15mph on a cart, it's a 3 minute drive. That means as long as they take less than 8 minutes to complete 9 from the fairway (which they should), they're going to overtake you on the way to the next tee. If memory serves that course is basically as flat as a pancake, so it's not a challenging 1000 yard walk, but it just doesn't work for playing the course.

[Kalen Braley]

I was giving this topic and thought and realize that everything is walkable. As someone who does long distance hikes, it really comes down to whether you can’t make the short steep climbs.

I’ve walked 36 holes at Highland Links. That’s an unusually long walk, but not hard, because it’s mostly about distance. An extra kilometre or two is not a big deal unless you have physical issues.

Capilano with Vancouver has a 360 foot elevation difference from the ninth to the 15th screen. It’s very walkable. Surprising really. To me that’s proof that it’s not about elevation either.

I think what comes down to is actually about how steep and how fast you have to go up. And for me personally, how much you have to walk down steep slopes. I personally find that much harder.

When the routing Is long between holes, with large elevation changes, that is where I lose my desire to walk it. That’s the golf course that makes the definition for me. 

But honestly, everything is walkable, even those most miserable cart golf course I’ve ever seen. And I’ve walked a few of them anyway.

Ian,

I've always seen this as a function of frequency.

One steep uphill walk or one long walk between holes is not a deal breaker per se.  But having to do this over and over again, especially the uphill/downhill combo really wears you down.

Sanctuary may be the most unwalkable course I've played and it has several of these in both categories...

[Michael Felton]

I was giving this topic and thought and realize that everything is walkable. As someone who does long distance hikes, it really comes down to whether you can’t make the short steep climbs.

I’ve walked 36 holes at Highland Links. That’s an unusually long walk, but not hard, because it’s mostly about distance. An extra kilometre or two is not a big deal unless you have physical issues.

Capilano with Vancouver has a 360 foot elevation difference from the ninth to the 15th screen. It’s very walkable. Surprising really. To me that’s proof that it’s not about elevation either.

I think what comes down to is actually about how steep and how fast you have to go up. And for me personally, how much you have to walk down steep slopes. I personally find that much harder.

When the routing Is long between holes, with large elevation changes, that is where I lose my desire to walk it. That’s the golf course that makes the definition for me. 

But honestly, everything is walkable, even those most miserable cart golf course I’ve ever seen. And I’ve walked a few of them anyway.

Ian,

I've always seen this as a function of frequency.

One steep uphill walk or one long walk between holes is not a deal breaker per se.  But having to do this over and over again, especially the uphill/downhill combo really wears you down.

Sanctuary may be the most unwalkable course I've played and it has several of these in both categories...

The uphill thing can really do a number. There's a course in Westchester called Glen Arbor. I'm probably exaggerating, but my recollection of it is that every hole plays downhill. The tees are not far away from the previous green, but they're all up there ^^^ That was a tough walk.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I was very disappointed that I was not able to walk Cabot St Lucia. Did not like the route of the cart paths on a couple of holes where you could not see the actual hole.  It is hard for me to love a course I cannot walk.

Did they not allow you to walk the course?  Couldn't you just let your caddie do the driving and walk as much as you wanted?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I was very disappointed that I was not able to walk Cabot St Lucia. Did not like the route of the cart paths on a couple of holes where you could not see the actual hole.  It is hard for me to love a course I cannot walk.

Paul, I played Point Hardy with my wife. Sometimes, I rode in the cart between some of the holes and on one and ten. The rest, I walked. It was an enjoyable way to do it, even for my 77-year-old legs.


I replayed Sanctuary yesterday. It certainly is not for the walking golfer, but it might be one of the most fun golf courses I have played. The short par fours and par fives are really creative and offer many different ways to play them. With the front range in view from the elevated tees, it ranks among the most beautiful places to play.

[Wade Whitehead]

I was very disappointed that I was not able to walk Cabot St Lucia. Did not like the route of the cart paths on a couple of holes where you could not see the actual hole.  It is hard for me to love a course I cannot walk.

Paul, I played Point Hardy with my wife. Sometimes, I rode in the cart between some of the holes and on one and ten. The rest, I walked. It was an enjoyable way to do it, even for my 77-year-old legs.


I replayed Sanctuary yesterday. It certainly is not for the walking golfer, but it might be one of the most fun golf courses I have played. The short par fours and par fives are really creative and offer many different ways to play them. With the front range in view from the elevated tees, it ranks among the most beautiful places to play.

I'll second Tommy's comments about Sanctuary. It's the single least walkable course I have ever played, but I wouldn't change a thing.

I think it's true that there are sites where the best course isn't a walking one...and others where there isn't a walking course to begin with!

WW

[Jonathan Cummings]

Kinda of a variation to this thread's title - How good CAN be an unwalkable golf course be?  I believe there is a upper limit, and that limit is less than a walkable golf course.

[Ian Mackenzie]

This thread could also be bundled under the tagline:


"Best course with Longest walks from greens to tees"...


or...


"Best cart-balling courses".


or...


"Best courses at 9,000'  elevation or more"


I played a fun course in the "good golf-starved" San Diego area last year.


The Bridges at Rancho Santa Whatever was a fun course but 100% unwalkable due to massive distances from the greens to the next tees over ravines and up hills.


Played Codillera (I think) near Vail a few years ago and the elevation changes made this course basically unwalkbale.


But, every time I play an unwalkable course, it usually renders itself unrankable at the same time.

[PThomas]

 but I could see how the lack of shade would give someone pause for thought on a hot, day with no clouds.

also true at Erin Hills, where , the starter stated, it's an 8.5 mile walk

[cary lichtenstein]

Ballybunion New was the toughest walk I can remember, also National is uphill for 17 and 18, I remember playing it in August, 95 degrees and the walk up 18 was brutal, there was another course in New York, I can't remember its name right now, but when I took off my golf shoes, I had blisters on each and every toe from walking uphill, my toes must have assisted my gripping, never happened before or since.

[PThomas]

I asked ChatGPT and it put Pinehurst #2 and the Old Course in the top 10 great courses that are hard to walk, so I guess don't look for many ChatGPT contributions to GCA in the near future.

Good Lord...

[Kalen Braley]

 but I could see how the lack of shade would give someone pause for thought on a hot, day with no clouds.

also true at Erin Hills, where , the starter stated, it's an 8.5 mile walk

Mapped this on Google Earth.

For the middle tees:

Front 9 (1 tee to 10 tee): 2.78 miles
Back 9 (10 tee to 18 green): 2.66 miles
Total Mileage: 5.44 miles

In most cases, you walk past back tees from prior green, so maybe another 1/4 mile hike if you play from tips.

[David Kelly]

If the weather is ok then Stone Eagle is pretty walkable in my opinion.  I've done it on a few occasions although we have always played #7 from the 6th fairway in order to skip the walk up to the 7th tee. You do miss the great vista of the Coachella Valley from the 7th tee box though.


Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV seemed the most unwalkable to me although I wouldn't put it in any best list.


Sneakiest tough walk to me would be Omaha CC.  I played there last summer and it seemed tougher on my legs than CapRock or The Dunes Club courses.

[Matthew Lloyd]

Omaha CC is a very sneaky tough walk. I haven’t played a long list of the pre-1930 classics (maybe ten of them) but Omaha is easily the hardest walk of that group. Loved the elevation changes but it was not a good time to be tired or dehydrated, that’s for sure.


Greywalls might get my vote for this category. I personally like to walk it but the people I’ve gone with refuse to join me but LOVE the course and their enthusiasm leads them to promote the course to anyone who will listen - they just have no interest in walking it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Omaha CC is a very sneaky tough walk. I haven’t played a long list of the pre-1930 classics (maybe ten of them) but Omaha is easily the hardest walk of that group. Loved the elevation changes but it was not a good time to be tired or dehydrated, that’s for sure.

I was at Omaha CC a few years ago. They told me that Craig Stadler walked nine practice holes before the senior open, declared the course too hilly, and drove to the airport.

[Tom_Doak]

I asked ChatGPT and it put Pinehurst #2 and the Old Course in the top 10 great courses that are hard to walk, so I guess don't look for many ChatGPT contributions to GCA in the near future.

Good Lord...

Maybe they were there because they are the two most famous courses where you are pretty much required to walk instead of take a buggy?

[Charlie Goerges]

I asked ChatGPT and it put Pinehurst #2 and the Old Course in the top 10 great courses that are hard to walk, so I guess don't look for many ChatGPT contributions to GCA in the near future.

Good Lord...

Maybe they were there because they are the two most famous courses where you are pretty much required to walk instead of take a buggy?

From what I've read, that could be it, but the software hallucinates a lot of stuff that doesn't make any sense at all. The large language models are essentially big, sophisticated text predictors like the autocorrect on our phones. They have zero fact-checking built in.

[Kalen Braley]

I asked ChatGPT and it put Pinehurst #2 and the Old Course in the top 10 great courses that are hard to walk, so I guess don't look for many ChatGPT contributions to GCA in the near future.

Good Lord...

Maybe they were there because they are the two most famous courses where you are pretty much required to walk instead of take a buggy?

From what I've read, that could be it, but the software hallucinates a lot of stuff that doesn't make any sense at all. The large language models are essentially big, sophisticated text predictors like the autocorrect on our phones. They have zero fact-checking built in.

Charlie,

I'd tend to agree here.  Asking ChatGPT a very specific and unusual question like this would be roughly the same as asking a random joe off the street and them just throwing out the first couple courses they could think of.  Hell even my golf buddies probably wouldn't have a clue on this...

But ChatGPT at least will certainly improve..

[Ira Fishman]

Try perplexity.ai. It gives a pretty good answer. LLMs are very limited, but still a lot of fun and do have great potential depending on the field/objective.