[Thomas Dai]

Seems like ‘flat’ courses, ones that essentially have very little overall elevation change even though they may be covered with humps and hollows and ripples and washboards don’t get too much love or perhaps less love than others that are smoother but have high spots from which the views are superior. I reckon this could have quite a bit to do with photography especially colour photography.
Thoughts?
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

Seems like ‘flat’ courses, ones that essentially have very little overall elevation change even though they may be covered with humps and hollows and ripples and washboards don’t get too much love or perhaps less love than others that are smoother but have high spots from which the views are superior. I reckon this could have quite a bit to do with photography especially colour photography.
Thoughts?
Atb

From a drone, the flatness doesn't matter so much, but it doesn't provide quite as much variety as gently rolling topography.

[Thomas Dai]

What got me pondering this, although not for the first time, was this piece that popped-up on my YouTube feed.
Carnoustie Burnside course as seen from head high, when it seems flat and semi-boring even though the terrain is wonderfully rippled and full of humps and hollows, and the views from a drone which show what appears to be splendid terrain for golf.
See - [size=78%]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d_ngr4cJEZ0[/size]
I don’t know the course at all having never played it although I have played its immediate neighbour the Championship course numerous times.
This video piece however seems to me to highlight the visual contradictions between head high and views from on-high rather nicely. I also wonder if variability in viewing height also affects folks perceptions of a course when it comes to ranking courses.
Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

It’s amazing that Jeff Warne and Sean Arble have such similar views on golf courses, given the height difference between them.


It really depends what you define as flat.


There’s no doubt “flat” courses can have loads of ripples and micro-movement that add to a round.


But primarily “flat” courses can also have plenty of ridges and topographical rolls in the land, the type Tom talks of.


What “flat” courses never have is enough elevation change to frame a view, particularly in photographs. That kind of elevation change can clearly add variety in hole type; whilst not necessarily adding much to the variety in playability or choice of shots.

[Sean_A]

What got me pondering this, although not for the first time, was this piece that popped-up on my YouTube feed.
Carnoustie Burnside course as seen from head high, when it seems flat and semi-boring even though the terrain is wonderfully rippled and full of humps and hollows, and the views from a drone which show what appears to be splendid terrain for golf.
See - [size=78%]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d_ngr4cJEZ0[/size]
I don’t know the course at all having never played it although I have played its immediate neighbour the Championship course numerous times.
This video piece however seems to me to highlight the visual contradictions between head high and views from on-high rather nicely. I also wonder if variability in viewing height also affects folks perceptions of a course when it comes to ranking courses.
Atb

Burnside is a good course. To me, flattish rippled land is the primo site for golf. TOC and Deal are testament to this. Its just rare to get that kind of site. Usually mild up and down as we get at Burnside, Panmure, Littlestone, Rosapenna OTM etc etc is the fallback primo site. I have never never been one to fully take to heaving hills or dunes unless the course is unusually playable. Often the the uphill approaches or rough along what are often narrow fairways between dunes is a real turn off after a while even if the courses are great. This is why 9 holers can be so endearing. They can tackle harsher terrain to come up with wonderful holes given the round lasts 9 holes and is often short yardage at that.

Sacred 9 is probably my favourite quite flat course...which belies common sense until one plays the course. 

Ciao   

[Matt MacIver]

Is that why Troon’s middle six are its “best” in that the first and last are basically flat?  Or are they truly better holes? 


If a course doesn’t have a chance for substantial wind (links), then I prefer strong grade changes and steeply uneven lies vs flat.  I recall Troon’s first six holes using angles (fairway vs rough, blindness) particularly well to address the flat “issue”.   

[Ally Mcintosh]

Is that why Troon’s middle six are its “best” in that the first and last are basically flat?  Or are they truly better holes? 


If a course doesn’t have a chance for substantial wind (links), then I prefer strong grade changes and steeply uneven lies vs flat.  I recall Troon’s first six holes using angles (fairway vs rough, blindness) particularly well to address the flat “issue”.

Troon’s middle six just stick in the memory more, for the exact reason you state (plus they move around in orientation whereas the first six are “out” and the last six are “back). But the 13th and 15th are perhaps the two best par-4’s on the course. The opening few holes are very flat and rely on bunkering and angles to make them holes to earn respect.

[Ian Andrew]

I always thought Quogue Field Club on Long Island is a perfect case study for a truly "flat" site. There's only four feet of elevation change, but the golf is remarkably good.

If your interested in seeing ground level images Geeked on Golf (Jason Way) did a profile:
https://geekedongolf.com/2017/10/field-of-dreams-peter-imber-quogue-field-club/

Images by the great Jon Cavalier

[Jeff Schley]

Ian wow that is quite a bit of various bunkering in that bottom picture what hole is that?

[cary lichtenstein]

I always liked courses with lots of eye candy, great elevation changes, forced carries, creative bunkering. This does not mean that I think they are better, they just get my heart beating faster. Examples are the 8th hole at Pebble Beach, 16th hole at Cypress, 17th hole at Sawgrass, 4th hole at Pine Valley, etc.


I remember playing a course badly, missing a bunch of greens but chipping and putting great. I added up my score at the end of the round and it was 70, even par on that course. I just shook my head, remembering later that it was a bad round of golf, but had I played one of those above, my reaction would be entirely different

[Frank M]

I am a huge huge fan of good low lying, "flat" golf courses. I'd say they are my favourites. I think golf was made to be subtle. And I love the beauty of simple, subtle golf that leaves you wondering why you didn't play better than you think you should have.

[Daryl David]

Bob is probably a real fan of narrowed fairways now!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Recently played Duff House Royal.  About half way round I relaised how flat it was and it made me appreciate it even more. There's a ridge where the Clubhouse aand 3 greens sit and the rest is about as flat as 80(guessing) acres can be. The greens and bunkering are a masterclass in how to make golf interesting. MacKenzie designed it and his brother built it.




Sometimes on a golf course or as I wander through towns I despair that professional architects can serve up such banality, when they could just copy/pay homage to the great stuff thats out there. Rather than 'Flat' courses getting less love, some courses with banal architecture get more love because of the land or the setting.  e.g. Hankley and Ardglass.

[PCCraig]

I like my golf courses like I like my women.... firm, fast, and curvy 

[Chris Hughes]

Garden City & Westhampton both flat as a pancake -- I couldn't love 'em more!!


Last night I was looking at aerials and it stuck me that both start-and-finish through fairly narrow corridor behind the clubhouse, but then the course fans out and the bulk of it occupies space a goodly distance from the clubhouse... 

[Tim Martin]

Nassau County NY is home to Inwood CC and Rockaway Hunting Club with both in Five Towns. Very flat courses that are easy to love.

[Mark_Fine]

Thomas,
Many of the greatest courses in the world are on relatively flat properties.  Happy to provide a list but I would start with most all of the great links courses in the British Isles. 

[Sean_A]

Thomas,
Many of the greatest courses in the world are on relatively flat properties.  Happy to provide a list but I would start with most all of the great links courses in the British Isles.

Mark, please provide a list of the great flat links.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Thomas,
Many of the greatest courses in the world are on relatively flat properties.  Happy to provide a list but I would start with most all of the great links courses in the British Isles.

Mark, please provide a list of the great flat links.

Ciao

The Old Course, St Andrews
Muirfield
Royal Liverpool
Royal Lytham
RCP


As a starter for 5, those are all pretty flat.

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks for the list Mark. 


By definition, a true links course is built near an estuary.  Not much elevation there. 


In addition to the great links courses, many others were built on relatively flat terrain such as Seminole, TPC Sawgrass, Harbour Town, The Ocean Course at Kiawah, Long Cove, Kittansett,..  to name a few.


One of my favorites is Fishers Island.  It is rumpled land but all in all relatively flat with what I am guessing 30-40 feet of elevation change scattered across the property which is nothing. 

[ward peyronnin]

I spent some time looking at Newport and Saunton during the recent senior events. Both seem to be relatively flat courses and each presented to me as the "flatter" type of course I truly like to play. The elevation changes for the most part were not that dramatic and what were in play were always integrated very nicely into the major features such as green platform, tees, and bunkers.Subtle shelves, ridges, and rolls fed balls into greenside bunkers placed as a part of the green platform. Hummocks and modest dunes became tees and observation points. Perhaps most importantly for the  sense of play are the multiple kickpoints one tries to identify and test from the same position on many shots that are not as available or varied on eye candy courses. And as mentioned fast and firm serves to really enhance these possibilties.

[JohnVDB]

Two of my favorite courses are both very flat.  Portmarnock and Country Club of Charleston are wonderful and almost flat.

[Mark_Fine]

Ward,
Newport CC is a great one.  I am heading to Newport on Friday.  Love the course.  The highest elevation is the clubhouse which is iconic.  The course is mostly over flat ground and lots of fun to play. 

[Sean_A]

Thomas,
Many of the greatest courses in the world are on relatively flat properties.  Happy to provide a list but I would start with most all of the great links courses in the British Isles.

Mark, please provide a list of the great flat links.

Ciao

The Old Course, St Andrews
Muirfield
Royal Liverpool
Royal Lytham
RCP

As a starter for 5, those are all pretty flat.

I guess I have a different idea of what flat is.

Ciao

[Jon Sweet]

Already mentioned but Kittansett is absolutely spectacular and offers very little in terms of ups and downs.

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