4th of July thread: Ideas on an archetypal American golf course?

[Matt Schoolfield]

If I were to throw a course into the ring, I'd probably say Bethpage Black/Red or TPC Sawgrass. I think it has to be parkland, and long. What are your thoughts?

[archie_struthers]

 


I like Oakmont....big brawny and untamed

[Ira Fishman]

There are over 15,000 golf courses in the US. Defining archetypal? Good luck.

[Thomas Dai]

An open goal opportunity that’s absolutely impossible to resist … ………..
Green. Lush. Water features. White sand. Buggies. Shorts. Baseball hats. Logo’s. Cigars. Beverage carts. Huge clubhouse.


Atb

[Dan_Callahan]

An open goal opportunity that’s absolutely impossible to resist … ………..
Green. Lush. Water features. White sand. Buggies. Shorts. Baseball hats. Logo’s. Cigars. Beverage carts. Huge clubhouse.

 
Atb

Don’t forget speakers on every cart blasting music.

[mike_malone]

I believe that Wayne Morrison heralded Flynn as a true American architect. I believe he never traveled overseas. So


    Shinnecock

[archie_struthers]

 


Mike,  Love Shinnecock


But I think it's too refined and elegant to be archetypal  I'm thinking of the evolution of the country and the way America burst on the scene

[Ronald Montesano]

Butterfield Trail in El Paso

Common Ground near Denver

Agree with Ira, that there is no archetypal USA terrain, so one single and singular golf course would be impossible.

Manakiki near Cleveland

Cape Arundel in Maine or Ekwanok in Vermont

I could go on for ever and always, so I'll quit with this nomination: Lawsonia Link

[Ally Mcintosh]

Quite clearly, the stereotypical - more so than archetypal - American course to anyone from GB&I growing up through the 70’s and 80’s was one with lots of water, beautifully maintained and that promoted target golf.


It was quite a romantic notion to many of us who had never faced water hazards before. That is why the closing stretch at Carnoustie was such a thrill for me; and also why Letham Grange was the original “Augusta of Scotland”

[Greg Hohman]

Coronado Muni, San Diego. Reason: contradictory. 1. affordable muni on a property of unaffordable-private quality, 2. a course beloved for the idea of it (see 1.) as opposed to the reality (mid Doak Scale?). Let's throw in the location: an island that doesn’t “feel” like an island, see huge bridge (wonderful as it is) and uncanny nearness of SD skyline when you are standing at the ferry landing. Competing agendas in very close proximity: residents, business owners, tourists, beachgoers, military (Navy). Architectural mix: lovely homes and the Del steps from unremarkable, pricey rentals (within walking distance of work for some, though most of the work force cannot afford to live here). Where the impossible is possible: free street parking steps from the beach (15 years ago when I went nearly every weekend). There's more, but wait, the weather isn’t contradictory. Never mind.

[Jeff_Brauer]

An exciting and fun topic.  I once saw a similar question posed about the archetypical diesel locomotive.  In that one, they looked at the North American fleet, i.e., age, horsepower, number of wheels, manufacturer, etc.  They managed to come up with one.  If we used a similar methodology, it might be:


Course Type:  Since 2/3 of courses are public, I think it must be public.
Course Age: I would have to look this one up, but I suspect the building booms of the 1980-90's would move the average age to somewhere post WWII.  I just did some math and if I am correct (unlikely) it seems the average course age is about 27 years.
Site type: I am just guessing, but I believe the "Parkland course" would be the most dominant type.
Length:  This could be measured with research, but I guess the maximum average yardage would still be just under 7,000K.
Par:  Almost certainly 72.
Course Rating:  Maybe low 70's?
Course Slope:  I know the average is about 116.
Architect: I would have to look this one up, too. But, If Ross, Jones, and a few others have designed hundreds of courses, down to the struggling are amateur architects over the years that might have designed only a few, I will say the archetype course should have been designed by an architect who is typical.....maybe having designed 50-60, mostly public golf courses.  If we include average budgets, it might be someone like Geoff Cornish, or maybe the legion of us who made a living in the 80s-90s.  Perhaps a guy like Dick Phelps.


So, the archetypical course should be:


Public (average green fee around $40)
Built about 1997 (although this does seem too new to me....)
Parkland
Par 72
Rating:  70?
Slope Rating: About 116
Back tee length is about 6,900 yards.
Architect: ??


Does anyone know a candidate that fits these descriptions?

[Ryan Book]

I recently had a similar conversation regarding the archetypal American food, and I felt the best answer was to choose something that had as little foreign influence as possible...so perhaps BBQ brisket versus hamburgers/hot dogs. The good news is that, in this instance, our archetypal food is also the most delicious.

Along those lines, as some have alluded already, the most archetypal American courses aren't Oakmonts or Shinnecocks...they're TPC Sawgrasses.

[Phil Young]

Jeff, how about one designed by the architect who was proclaimed the "Dean of American-born architects," A. W. Tillinghast, Bethpage Black. From the day it was opened it has been the championship course of the "common man" and despite its challenge regardless of the t4es one plays from, people still sleep overnight to play it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil,


It's possible, and I doubt anyone will run the math I just suggested, so why not?

[Bernie Bell]

I think an archetype is an original after which others are later patterned, not something itself patterned after what someone saw in Scotland etc. (Not to be confused with stereotype.).  So .... Langford & Moreau?  Stiles & Van Kleek?   

[Brian Finn]

An exciting and fun topic.  I once saw a similar question posed about the archetypical diesel locomotive.  In that one, they looked at the North American fleet, i.e., age, horsepower, number of wheels, manufacturer, etc.  They managed to come up with one.  If we used a similar methodology, it might be:

Course Type:  Since 2/3 of courses are public, I think it must be public.
Course Age: I would have to look this one up, but I suspect the building booms of the 1980-90's would move the average age to somewhere post WWII.  I just did some math and if I am correct (unlikely) it seems the average course age is about 27 years.
Site type: I am just guessing, but I believe the "Parkland course" would be the most dominant type.
Length:  This could be measured with research, but I guess the maximum average yardage would still be just under 7,000K.
Par:  Almost certainly 72.
Course Rating:  Maybe low 70's?
Course Slope:  I know the average is about 116.
Architect: I would have to look this one up, too. But, If Ross, Jones, and a few others have designed hundreds of courses, down to the struggling are amateur architects over the years that might have designed only a few, I will say the archetype course should have been designed by an architect who is typical.....maybe having designed 50-60, mostly public golf courses.  If we include average budgets, it might be someone like Geoff Cornish, or maybe the legion of us who made a living in the 80s-90s.  Perhaps a guy like Dick Phelps.

So, the archetypical course should be:

Public (average green fee around $40)
Built about 1997 (although this does seem too new to me....)
Parkland
Par 72
Rating:  70?
Slope Rating: About 116
Back tee length is about 6,900 yards.
Architect: ??

Does anyone know a candidate that fits these descriptions?

When I lived near Columbus, Ohio I played a number of courses that I might consider archetypal American courses.  One of my favorites among those happens to fit many of these criteria fairly well. 

Darby Creek GC
Marysville, OH (rural, not too far from CMH though)
Public, $46 with cart on weekend
Cornish & Silva
opened 1993
par 72
7,074 yards from the tips (this surprised me, would have guessed 6,800)

Part of the land was once home of orchard, it has a 200 year old cemetery onsite, and has nine holes that play on open, rolling land, and nine that play back into the woods.  It's a pretty darn good course, well above average for the 15k or so US courses (not sure if that would disqualify it).

[Greg Hohman]

A cemetery is a point in Darby Creek's favor. It made me think of an on-site distillery or microbrewery as a necessary ingredient, but that's getting away from the course itself, which I have done already, into location-manager territory.

[mike_beene]

To me, the answer is Dornick Hills. Designed by a banker from Ardmore who is buried on the property. Unpretentious. But very nice. Experienced boom and bust. Between the mountain ranges.

[Kalen Braley]

See this thread from 2 years ago.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71058.0.html

[Joe Wandro]

I’m stealing a take from my colleague Evan Baldridge. This country’s most unique contribution to the game is Prairie Golf. Sand Hills, Prairie Dunes, and Ballyneal would seem appropriate.