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Paul Jones

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2024, 05:37:42 PM »
The first few pros I met, I asked what their favorite courses and each one listed the courses that they won on or made the most money.  It had nothing to do with architecture.  So I stopped asking.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2024, 05:50:41 PM »
I'd say most of the pros aren't nearly smart enough or business savvy.  Nicklaus is an exception.  He was smart enough and put together a real business. Crenshaw an obvious exception (based on reputation).
Don't you think AP was both smart enough and had savvy?  Maybe he just didn't have the interest or wanted to focus on other things.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2024, 05:51:37 PM »
I'd say most of the pros aren't nearly smart enough or business savvy.  Nicklaus is an exception.  He was smart enough and put together a real business. Crenshaw an obvious exception (based on reputation).
Ooooh, I don't know about calling Jack Nicklaus a savvy businessman.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2024, 05:55:17 PM »
I'd say most of the pros aren't nearly smart enough or business savvy.  Nicklaus is an exception.  He was smart enough and put together a real business. Crenshaw an obvious exception (based on reputation).
Ooooh, I don't know about calling Jack Nicklaus a savvy businessman.
Didn't he lose the rights to the Nicklaus Design business?

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2024, 06:59:05 PM »
Didn't he lose the rights to the Nicklaus Design business?
And almost went bankrupt many times, sold his NIL and got sued by "himself" (not really, but kinda  :) ) IIRC, etc. So, yeah, I don't think I'd call Jack a savvy businessman.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Rob Marshall

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2024, 07:24:42 PM »
I'd say most of the pros aren't nearly smart enough or business savvy.  Nicklaus is an exception.  He was smart enough and put together a real business. Crenshaw an obvious exception (based on reputation).
Ooooh, I don't know about calling Jack Nicklaus a savvy businessman.
Didn't he lose the rights to the Nicklaus Design business?


He sold them, then sued.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Chris Hughes

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2024, 08:04:27 PM »

Additionally I said good at golf course design, so also eliminate at least half of the tour players you mentioned, maybe more.


Exactly.

Good and "successful" are completely different things in this context...

Barzeski, have been corresponding with the USGA, will update the soft/hard-cap "anti-abuse" info soon.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 08:18:48 PM by Chris Hughes »
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the golf course that attracts and retains members ?"

Chris Hughes

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2024, 08:14:51 PM »
I'd say most of the pros aren't nearly smart enough or business savvy.  Nicklaus is an exception.  He was smart enough and put together a real business. Crenshaw an obvious exception (based on reputation).
Don't you think AP was both smart enough and had savvy? 

He definitely wasn't/didn't.

However, his agents Alastair & Mark (with an assist from Jack), along with Ed Seay (and Erik Larsen), were/did...

...those guys minted money for Arnold in that business for many years. 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 08:22:41 PM by Chris Hughes »
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the golf course that attracts and retains members ?"

Matthew Rose

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2024, 10:01:01 PM »
I feel like one of the biggest criticisms of Nicklaus was that he designed around his own game, which understandably was not relatable for most people.

Maybe the disconnect is too great between tour level and weekend hacker.... is the pro always going to be designing for the pro game, even subconsciously?

American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Mike_Young

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2024, 10:16:33 PM »
_Most_ 'signature' designers are in no sense golf course architects.
 It is up to you whether you consider someone who drives the design of individual holes a golf course architect.
Agree.  And this comment encompasses more than just professional golfers.  JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2024, 02:00:29 AM »
_Most_ 'signature' designers are in no sense golf course architects.
 It is up to you whether you consider someone who drives the design of individual holes a golf course architect.
Agree.  And this comment encompasses more than just professional golfers.  JMO


I don’t really agree.


Sometimes too much emphasis is put on routing. Yes it’s absolutely the cornerstone of any great course but an architect might spend as little as 2-3 days on routing whilst spending 80 days on hole design and detail and another 100 days on site supervision / building. It’s the 30 days of permitting, masterplanning and selling - which goes hand in hand with the routing - that is sometimes forgotten however.


But actually designing and building hole strategy and detail is very different to the signature pro’s “driving an individual hole design” as Adam refers to. I don’t consider most signature pro’s as course architects in any meaningful sense. I absolutely consider as an architect those who take someone’s skeleton routing and completely transform a course’s look and feel + playing strategy.


Back to routing:


- On a 2,000 acre wonderful sandy site, even average GCA’s could come up with a good routing, perhaps not a great one but good enough that almost all enthusiastic golfers wouldn’t know the difference. The great ones usually identify the less obvious green sites and hole corridors. The public don’t often recognise that.


- On a dead flat 300 acre site of heavy farmland, even average GCA’s would come up with a workable routing. It’s about how you transform that routing that becomes the skill.


- On a 150 acre site with good topography and land movement, that is where a really good routing shines from an average one.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2024, 06:18:28 AM »
Bottom line:


Most golf pros - nearly all - have not put in the same time and effort at learning and practicing golf course design and construction as someone who has made it their primary career.


It is a hobby, something to add on.
100% and I will add something to make money off. A lot of them are very interested and a lot of them of very focused on just playing and DO NOT see golf architecture until they start to decline.
I also think a good golf course architect should be able to UNDERSTAND how an elite player plays and also UNDERSTAND how a 28 handicapper plays. That is why some of best golf course architects are 9 handicappers.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mike_Young

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2024, 07:34:08 AM »
I feel like one of the biggest criticisms of Nicklaus was that he designed around his own game, which understandably was not relatable for most people.

Maybe the disconnect is too great between tour level and weekend hacker.... is the pro always going to be designing for the pro game, even subconsciously?
IMHO , Nicklaus didn't necessarily design for the tour player but he brought a different type of golf into play.  Before JN most greens had been built to slope from back to front and good players focused on keeping the ball below the hole, (preferably from 4 o'clock to 8 o'clock on a clock face) You didn't want to be hole high but left or right of the pin because the break would be significant.   but JN designed in more tiers on diagonals thus asking for a player to execute the exact distance to the pin and in most cases this would give you a flatter putt.  Just two different kinds of golf.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCrosby

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2024, 08:29:38 AM »
I would love to hear from our UK friends about Henry Cotton's design work.


I know little about it, but learned recently that he worked for a time with Guy Campbell. Intriguing.


Bob

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2024, 08:44:37 AM »
I would love to hear from our UK friends about Henry Cotton's design work.

I know little about it, but learned recently that he worked for a time with Guy Campbell. Intriguing.

Bob

Cotton also worked with Alex Swan, the father of my friend the architect Howard Swan.

http://www.swangolfdesigns.com/#about

Other than Penina, I haven't see a lot of Sir Henry's work, but I came across a lot of his columns about golf design in the course of my Colt research, and from those it was fairly obvious to me that he was a believer in penal design.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2024, 09:06:29 AM »
I feel like one of the biggest criticisms of Nicklaus was that he designed around his own game, which understandably was not relatable for most people.

Maybe the disconnect is too great between tour level and weekend hacker.... is the pro always going to be designing for the pro game, even subconsciously?
IMHO , Nicklaus didn't necessarily design for the tour player but he brought a different type of golf into play.  Before JN most greens had been built to slope from back to front and good players focused on keeping the ball below the hole, (preferably from 4 o'clock to 8 o'clock on a clock face) You didn't want to be hole high but left or right of the pin because the break would be significant.   but JN designed in more tiers on diagonals thus asking for a player to execute the exact distance to the pin and in most cases this would give you a flatter putt.  Just two different kinds of golf.


Mike,


Interesting post. There is another thread currently high on the board about Stanley Thompson in Ohio. Typically these discussions focus on Sleepy Hollow, but the unheralded Big Met (which is often cited as the busiest course in Ohio) has some greens that are exactly what you describe: they slope back to front but being pin high to the right or left is almost a guaranteed three putt. Holes #15 and 17 are the best examples.


#17 is the most interesting. It is about 290 with no bunkers or other hazards, but that green has left many golfers frustrated they couldn’t score better.


I wonder if Stanley Thompson imagined it would turn out this way.
Tim Weiman

Joe Zucker

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2024, 10:05:23 AM »
I feel like one of the biggest criticisms of Nicklaus was that he designed around his own game, which understandably was not relatable for most people.

Maybe the disconnect is too great between tour level and weekend hacker.... is the pro always going to be designing for the pro game, even subconsciously?
IMHO , Nicklaus didn't necessarily design for the tour player but he brought a different type of golf into play.  Before JN most greens had been built to slope from back to front and good players focused on keeping the ball below the hole, (preferably from 4 o'clock to 8 o'clock on a clock face) You didn't want to be hole high but left or right of the pin because the break would be significant.   but JN designed in more tiers on diagonals thus asking for a player to execute the exact distance to the pin and in most cases this would give you a flatter putt.  Just two different kinds of golf.


Mike,


Interesting post. There is another thread currently high on the board about Stanley Thompson in Ohio. Typically these discussions focus on Sleepy Hollow, but the unheralded Big Met (which is often cited as the busiest course in Ohio) has some greens that are exactly what you describe: they slope back to front but being pin high to the right or left is almost a guaranteed three putt. Holes #15 and 17 are the best examples.


#17 is the most interesting. It is about 290 with no bunkers or other hazards, but that green has left many golfers frustrated they couldn’t score better.


I wonder if Stanley Thompson imagined it would turn out this way.


Tim,


As a native west sider, I love to see Big Met mentioned here.  I always thought #10 was the most difficult green to be pin high or above on.  But if my memory is correct, they rebuilt that green in the early 2000s, so I have no idea how authentic it actually is.  I wouldn't call #10 interesting, since it's more or less one big slope.


I agree that #17 is the most interesting green and arguably most interesting hole out there.  I've played a lot of rounds out there with very good players and the conventional plan was to try and leave it just short so you could putt/chip up to the hole.  Many players just hit 3 wood and leave a pitch in.  In spite of greens running <10, the green was challenging if you're in the wrong spot.

BCrosby

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2024, 10:07:57 AM »
I would love to hear from our UK friends about Henry Cotton's design work.

I know little about it, but learned recently that he worked for a time with Guy Campbell. Intriguing.

Bob

Cotton also worked with Alex Swan, the father of my friend the architect Howard Swan.

http://www.swangolfdesigns.com/#about

Other than Penina, I haven't see a lot of Sir Henry's work, but I came across a lot of his columns about golf design in the course of my Colt research, and from those it was fairly obvious to me that he was a believer in penal design.




Adam - That was my understanding as well, which is why a partnership with Guy Campbell struck me as odd.

Bruce Katona

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2024, 01:13:18 PM »
1. Routing = Master Plann Design which is a nice pretty picture that looks good and sells the project, but will miss some of the difficulties of individual hole design as its done on a large scale.


2. The clubhouse, range, & mintenance buildings need to be properly located to minimize cost of running required infrastrure to a potentially remote location.


3. Individual Hole design based on requested/required design intent of the client - "Look hard, play fair" or Beat them into submission" or "this is public access, we need to have a user friendly course to keep play moving". 


4. Hole design leads to mass earthwork calaculations - are we short fill & need to dig a borrow pit or lake or did we generate too much fill and need to raise the site up?


5. Fine grading on each hole to have water drain properly to low points, away from/around bunkers to directed swales or stormwater facilities.


6. Cart path routing/spot a pot locations - hide or minimize cart path site and comfort stations.........do we need any bridges ?


7. Permitting is a huge issue - a bit more than 30 days.


8. Grass & grassing specs


9. USGA greens mix or native mix - soil testing will tell a lot.


10. Irrigation design


Just a few bigger picture ideas above ( I've missed a few) that come to mind when thinking about course design - from macro down to smaller issues.  The name on the door may or may not be aware how important each of the above are, but someone from their team ceratinly is.

Mike Bodo

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2024, 01:22:32 PM »
Other outstanding players turned successful architects include: Donald Ross, Old Tom, Pete and Alice Dye, Steve Smyers, Bill Diddel, William Langford, James Braid, and others.
You left out Willie Park, Jr. but I know it's hard to remember them all.  ;) ;D
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2024, 01:26:11 PM »
IMHO, it really comes down to who they hire to ghost the project for them, even if they are involved in some final decisions about hole strategies, etc.  In the end, even the most active ones like Jack, by necessity, leave most design to others representing them.


As to Ben, some years back when I was working on Hainan Island, I stayed in the same hotel as Bill Coore.  Bill spent hundreds of nights in that hotel, and Ben just a few, mostly because he didn't want to travel anymore.


I haven't talked to him in a while, but I believe Mark McCumber studied landscape architecture somewhat, or at least had a landscape design company as a family business, and he might be the biggest exception to the rule.


As to the old guys, all professions related to golf were simpler then, and many wore several hats to stay alive.  It would be interesting to see how their work progressed over their careers, although CBM and a few others certainly seemed to have gotten it right from the start.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Bodo

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2024, 01:34:22 PM »
What about Brooks Koepka and his involvement with the renovation at Memorial Park in Houston? Would love to hear from Tom on what his actual contributions to the project were. I suspect he was used more as a sounding board and not much more, whereas Tom carried out the actual design work.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Tom_Doak

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2024, 03:55:54 AM »
I feel like one of the biggest criticisms of Nicklaus was that he designed around his own game, which understandably was not relatable for most people.

Maybe the disconnect is too great between tour level and weekend hacker.... is the pro always going to be designing for the pro game, even subconsciously?


The biggest difference is that their perspective on the game is just very different than mine or yours, which has a lot to do with their own games, and their strengths and weaknesses.  It's not subconscious at all.


I just spent a few hours Tuesday with Padraig Harrington at The Renaissance Club; his role has been to listen to comments from the players, combine that with his own knowledge of competing out here, and provide feedback to me.  I learn something every time I talk to him.


The lesson this trip was again in how the players think.  For the past couple of years, I've been trying to concentrate any changes we might contemplate on whether they will change what the players are trying to do off the tee or on their approach.  From the feedback, it seems I've understood their strategy correctly, but not their emotions.


For a concrete example:  the first hole had no trouble down the right, and players were just banging it down there to take a tree on the left out of play, so two years ago we added a pretty nasty fairway bunker on the right, in tight to the fairway at 300-315 yards off the tee.  If you get it in there, you sometimes won't be able to hit it on the green, and the players are okay with that . . . they know that if they hit it in there, it's their own fault, they missed the shot.


What they DON'T like is that there is twenty yards of manageable rough to the right of that bunker before you get to a gorse bush, and if their opponent hits a worse miss and winds up there, he has an EASIER shot to the green.  And THAT pisses them off.  From their perspective, a worse miss should be punished more, because they all have the ability to hit whatever shot we ask, and if they didn't it's on them.  [Important to note that no one would deliberately aim for that rough, because it's too close to the gorse; but it might cause some of them to downplay the bunker, because that's not always where they'll wind up if they miss right.]


So from most Tour players' standpoint, a perfect course would have 1-inch rough just outside the fairway, and then it would bevel up to knee-high rough thirty yards further out, on both sides of the target zone.  They'd like my first hole better if we put in another bunker, or some thicker rough, or more contour to give you an odd stance in the rough.  But then they'd complain if someone got lucky and hit it between the bunkers, or got a better lie in one of them!


If you say to them that amateurs would all quit if forced to play such a course, or vote with their feet and go somewhere else, they will laugh and understand that.  But that doesn't change their view on what good architecture is, or what's fair.  Their perspective is all geared toward playing for money against other great players; it's not about playing for fun.  And mine probably would be different, too, if I were that good.


But most of us don't want to play a golf course designed to reward only the best shots, because most of us are incapable of hitting a shot that the Tour pro thinks of as outstanding.


Rob Marshall

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2024, 12:21:26 PM »
Thanks Tom, that is a great example. From an amateur prospective… our sprinkler system doesn’t cover the entire corridor of rough. The closer you are to the fairway the worse your lie tends to be in the rough. Drives me crazy until I hit one father from the fairway and get a better lie than the guy who missed the first cut by 6 inches… after 50 years of playing this game I’ve finally learned to accept the result. I hit it there and move on.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Why have so few tour pros been good golf course designers?
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2024, 02:44:53 PM »
For a concrete example:  the first hole had no trouble down the right, and players were just banging it down there to take a tree on the left out of play, so two years ago we added a pretty nasty fairway bunker on the right, in tight to the fairway at 300-315 yards off the tee.  If you get it in there, you sometimes won't be able to hit it on the green, and the players are okay with that . . . they know that if they hit it in there, it's their own fault, they missed the shot.

What they DON'T like is that there is twenty yards of manageable rough to the right of that bunker before you get to a gorse bush, and if their opponent hits a worse miss and winds up there, he has an EASIER shot to the green.  And THAT pisses them off.  From their perspective, a worse miss should be punished more, because they all have the ability to hit whatever shot we ask, and if they didn't it's on them.  [Important to note that no one would deliberately aim for that rough, because it's too close to the gorse; but it might cause some of them to downplay the bunker, because that's not always where they'll wind up if they miss right.]
Yeah, they don't like luck and randomness… which I admire to a certain extent, wanting the competitions to be as purely about skill as possible, but at the same time… that'd lead to the most boring courses in the world, as you denote.

Which in the back of their minds they also get, too. They're a paradox wrapped up in an enigma. Actually, most of them haven't given it anywhere near that much thought, so…
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

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