[jeffwarne]

Does every single classic course with $$ have to be renovated to accommodate speeds not suited for the original design?


It's funny,modern speeds are referred to almost like they're inevitable or given,almost like a disease a course must accept.


"Sir we've been over to The Stimp Club next door. and seen their green speed. As a result,we've hired the finest Superintendant in the business to elevate our turf speed, and I'm afraid it's terminal"


The latest Herbert Leeds victim is soon to be the incredible, one a kind Myopia Hunt Club which I had the privilege of playing again yesterday.



No doubt it will be hailed as a "restoration."...and highly acclaimed. And I am absolutely sure the finished product will be a great course in impeccable condition, and of course their members have the right to proceed however they want.
So it's kind've a rant about nothing, but I lament the loss of extreme, sheer tilt and slope in pinnable areas, to accommodate modern turf speeds.



I guess you're not "keeping up with the Jones'' '"   if your course is still so -"one of a kind"

[Rob Marshall]

“Waiting with bated breath to see what hole they incorporate a short grass surround into the following tee.”
[/size][/color]
[/size]Ian Andrew did this at The Park Club in Buffalo on at least one hole I remember. We added a lot of runoff areas when he did our renovation. Everyone just whacks a putter. Seems to me it takes some of the skill out of the short game. They do look great.[/color]

[Jeff Schley]

Jeff agreed and having just played Cruden Bay with greens running max 9 it was something I didn’t even think about. When have links courses ever worried about stimps? Don’t understand the US checklist of a restoration packaging 12+ stimps with their requirements. Ok so maybe you really have em run for a couple events a year, but for goodness sakes where is the restraint?  It is like a money manager putting all your money on high risk investments where you know sooner or later it will ruin your position.

[Thomas Dai]

Having access to too much money can be dangerous.
I believe someone once said herein that 80% of restoration/renovation (changes/improvements?) really comes down to tree management and mowing lines/width? Maybe add drainage to this.

Atb

[Peter Bowman]

Having access to too much money can be dangerous.
I believe someone once said herein that 80% of restoration/renovation (changes/improvements?) really comes down to tree management and mowing lines/width? Maybe add drainage to this.

Atb

A fine example of the 80/20 rule I love so much. 80% effect at 20% of the effort/cost, 20% effect at 80% of the effort/cost
It baffles me why greens speeds need to exceed 10 in so many places.  Greens can be more fun when they are played off a significant slope without running 30 yards from the cup

[Michael Felton]

Jeff agreed and having just played Cruden Bay with greens running max 9 it was something I didn’t even think about. When have links courses ever worried about stimps?

They have to keep them relatively slow - a 25mph wind with an exposed green a ball won't stay on there if they're running too fast.


Generally speaking though I don't think that UK courses have the same issues with blindingly fast green speeds (with a few exceptions I guess - Hunstanton is still the fastest greens I've ever seen).

[jeffwarne]

Jeff agreed and having just played Cruden Bay with greens running max 9 it was something I didn’t even think about. When have links courses ever worried about stimps?

They have to keep them relatively slow - a 25mph wind with an exposed green a ball won't stay on there if they're running too fast.


Generally speaking though I don't think that UK courses have the same issues with blindingly fast green speeds (with a few exceptions I guess - Hunstanton is still the fastest greens I've ever seen).

Every time I go over they are faster than they were the last time I was there.

[Thomas Dai]

Jeff agreed and having just played Cruden Bay with greens running max 9 it was something I didn’t even think about. When have links courses ever worried about stimps?

They have to keep them relatively slow - a 25mph wind with an exposed green a ball won't stay on there if they're running too fast.
Generally speaking though I don't think that UK courses have the same issues with blindingly fast green speeds (with a few exceptions I guess - Hunstanton is still the fastest greens I've ever seen).

Every time I go over they are faster than they were the last time I was there.

I concur, unfortunately. Totally unnecessary.
Atb

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
I mentioned in a post a few weeks ago we are adding short grass around a number of our greens at Lehigh and calling it “restoration”   


To be frank, I do like short grass around some greens as it can make for a great hazard and add shot variety but call it what it is.  Greens in the 1920’s when many of these courses were built did not roll at 12 nor did the fairways roll at 8 or 9 or higher like they can and do today.  We are not restoring anything by adding short grass in these areas, we are changing and if that is what the club wants to do so be it but call a duck a duck.

[jeffwarne]

.
 

[Ken Moum]

Every time I go over they are faster than they were the last time I was there.

I love Golspie, and am paying membership even when not going there, but the greens last summer were really fast at times.


Six and 15 both had huge areas where you couldn't have put the cup.

[Michael Morandi]

Members like to brag about the speed of their greens, as if it’s a badge of honor. Rarely do you hear the general membership say our greens are relatively slow to increase the number of pin positions. Someone on this site might say this but not the general membership or the weekend golfer at a good muni. Is this the Augusta effect or the USGA’s doing? 

[Adam G]

I agree Myopia keeps those greens too fast. On 4 and 8 there is almost no pinnable space. They should run a 9.


But the member who hosted me says they have run 12-14 for 30 years and its something the club is very committed to. Given this, I think softening those two greens just a hair makes a lot of sense. If they go ahead and soften, I trust Gil & Co. to do so in a historically sensitive way. I don't think they are going to modernize it. They know it is a museum of what golf was like in the US in the 1900s. And the tree clearing they have done so far has been sensationally good.


Bottom line: Myopia will be true to what it is for decades to come. The membership knows why what they have is special and is committed to maintaining it.

[jeffwarne]

Every time I go over they are faster than they were the last time I was there.

I love Golspie, and am paying membership even when not going there, but the greens last summer were really fast at times.


Six and 15 both had huge areas where you couldn't have put the cup.

To be fair Ken, this quote by me was in reference to the UK  not Myopia.
I've only been to Myopia twice.

[jeffwarne]

I agree Myopia keeps those greens too fast. On 4 and 8 there is almost no pinnable space. They should run a 9.


But the member who hosted me says they have run 12-14 for 30 years and its something the club is very committed to. Given this, I think softening those two greens just a hair makes a lot of sense. If they go ahead and soften, I trust Gil & Co. to do so in a historically sensitive way. I don't think they are going to modernize it. They know it is a museum of what golf was like in the US in the 1900s. And the tree clearing they have done so far has been sensationally good.


Bottom line: Myopia will be true to what it is for decades to come. The membership knows why what they have is special and is committed to maintaining it.

I'm sure it will be incredibly well received postc renovation.
But I'd say your post completely makes my point.
Just different opinions on how to deal with the terminal green speed disease.


I seriously doubt a ball would stay on several of those greens ar 14 but I digress..Someone is mistaking slope for stimp when a ball won't stop rolling.


Who gets the job when The Stimp Club down the street goes to 16 as the norm

[MCirba]

Sadly, all too often mo' money means less common sense, especially newly inherited money.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Consider that a museum piece is something that is preserved for posterity, in a way that does not permit usage, or used in a way that is authentic to its original time. While Oakhurst was a course that could have been considered a museum piece in the latter sense, as it was played exclusively with period hickory shafted clubs, I don't know any courses that have been preserved by forbidding play.

Much like the classic car culture. There are very few people who daily drive their vintage automobiles. They may be more pleasurable to drive, but the reduction in overall performance and safety, or the increase in maintenance and cost of ownership dissuades every day use.

The term that came to be in the car culture, Restomod, is one we should really use more often in golf course architecture. Matching classic styling with modern comfort, performance and reliability. Modern "Restorations" are all to often exactly this. Providing the look and feel of a vintage course for the play of the modern equipment and game.

While we may desire specific courses to be preserved as museum pieces, unless the membership of these clubs adopt the practice of playing those courses using the appropriate equipment for the courses origins, I don't foresee a time in which museum piece course exist. rather, the best we can hope for are tasteful Restomods. Consider the evolution at Pinehurst over the past 2 decades. The desire for that course to be returned to its visual and playable roots was also done in a way that was conscious of modern play. While the presentation of Pinehurst today does bring into question Donald Ross's design intent, The "best of both worlds" mentality is often grey at best.

[Jim Sherma]

My club's 12th hole is a par 3 with a back to front sloping fairly severe green. The hole has been there for 94 years and while there has been shrinkage on the margins and whatever build up from top-dressing and sand splash the green has functioned fine for the bulk of those 94 years. Of course the faster the green gets the less and less reasonable it gets to the point that there are almost no pin placements that work well beyond a certain speed, 11.5-12.5 would be my guess. There are some marginal spots at those speeds but there are a lot more that are not reasonable. The shrinkage has definitely lost some potential pin placements on the right side of the green. Talking to people it is clear that the median member views this as an architectural problem, not what we here would call a maintenance meld issue. The rest of the greens at those speeds have some very tough pin placements but nothing that would be deemed unreasonable. The obvious solution to us would be to slow the greens down a bit and use some of the more aggressive pin placements throughout the course. We are not an equity club, if we were I have no doubt the green would have been altered by now. Thankfully it hasn't been and a handful of bad pins a year is not a great burden I guess. 

[John Mayhugh]

My club recently reopened one of our courses after being shut down for ten months to regrass the greens with something more heat resistant. During that time, they also modified several of the greens because they were too steep for the green speeds that people seem to want. Harmony Landing is not really museum material, but something gets lots when tilt gets removed.

[Michael Morandi]

This from Spyglass Hill, explaining changes to the 17th hole, which corresponds to what everyone here is saying:


In recent years, it became apparent that one specific green had become almost too difficult to both play and maintain: the 17th. In terms of playability, hole location options were limited due to the green’s severe slope, particularly at today’s championship speeds. Agronomically, the native soil under the green did not allow for proper drainage, leaving the area saturated by any amount of rain.[/font]
In the summer of 2019, both these challenges were addressed with a comprehensive renovation. First, a state-of-the-art drainage system was installed underground. While invisible to the eye, the system includes over 2,000 feet of piping, optimal sand profile, and a SubAir unit. As a result, Bob Yeo, Superintendent at Spyglass, and his maintenance team can better control the moisture content in the green, providing consistent playability year-round.

On the green itself, 1,000 square feet of putting surface was reclaimed from areas that had gradually transitioned to rough over the past five decades, restoring the green back to its original size. In addition, several slopes were gently softened, making them more appropriate for today’s green speeds. As a result, the number of usable hole locations has more than doubled. This means that pros playing in the 2020 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am will face new hole placements for the first time.

[Michael Moore]

The latest Herbert Leeds victim is soon to be the incredible one a kind Myopia Hunt Club which I had the privilege of playing yesterday.

What's the plan?

[Michael Felton]

something gets lots when tilt gets removed.

A ball landing doesn't care how long the grass is (at typical green heights of cut), just how firm the ground is, so more severe slopes can kick a ball around much more than flatter ones regardless of how fast the greens are. If the greens are fast enough that you have to reduce the tilt, then you're also reducing that first bounce effect.

[Mark_Fine]

It is not just the bounce, it is the roll afterward.  See August #12 and #15 or Lancaster #12 in the Women’s Open.  Balls don’t roll back in the water in 1930 with the height of the cut back then.

[Michael Felton]

It is not just the bounce, it is the roll afterward.  See August #12 and #15 or Lancaster #12 in the Women’s Open.  Balls don’t roll back in the water in 1930 with the height of the cut back then.

Agreed, but I think that's a different point. John M had said something gets lost when tilt is removed. A green with a 2% slope and 12 on the stimp might break the same amount as a 4% slope and a 6 on the stimp (I don't know how exactly those relate to each other, but for sake of argument), but a ball landing on a 4% slope will react much differently from a ball landing on a 2% slope whether the stimp is 3, 6, 12 or 20. So if you reduce the slope to accommodate faster green speeds, then you are losing something - namely how the ball bounces. Whether a ball rolls back in the water or not is a function of slope and green speed, same as break.

[cary lichtenstein]

I remember green speeds of 6 or 7 when I started playing, what's wrong with that? What do you thin k the green speeds were at Pinehurst 2?

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