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David_Tepper

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Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« on: June 18, 2024, 01:20:10 PM »
.......but there is a 12-minute video tribute to him here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kAGLugETU4

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2024, 03:35:29 PM »
.......but there is a 12-minute video tribute to him here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kAGLugETU4
It really is nice that someone has taken up the mantel of reasonably affordable, public golf. Even with the accolades he gets, I think we are underrating his influence on the future of American golf.

It drives me crazy when golf influencers travel to Scotland or Ireland and are like "Oh, wow! It's amazing that you can just book a tee time online for the best courses in the country. This is cool! We should do this in America" and then they come back home and go right back to business as usual. The fact that it's effectively illegal to offer tee times online to our historic privates is just part of the tax code, a part that could easily be changed, and it wouldn't even be controversial to change it. The influence of Keiser is really in caring more about creating good golf for the sake of good golf and nothing else.

From that passion for golf's terroir, I suspect that within the next hundred years, there will be a courses peppering that Oregon highway from Port Orford to Florence like they do in Long Island today.
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David_Tepper

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2024, 04:02:16 PM »
The video linked about ties in with the article linked on an earlier thread:

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,72981.0.html

Rob Marshall

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2024, 04:13:27 PM »
.......but there is a 12-minute video tribute to him here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kAGLugETU4
It really is nice that someone has taken up the mantel of reasonably affordable, public golf. Even with the accolades he gets, I think we are underrating his influence on the future of American golf.

It drives me crazy when golf influencers travel to Scotland or Ireland and are like "Oh, wow! It's amazing that you can just book a tee time online for the best courses in the country. This is cool! We should do this in America" and then they come back home and go right back to business as usual. The fact that it's effectively illegal to offer tee times online to our historic privates is just part of the tax code, a part that could easily be changed, and it wouldn't even be controversial to change it. The influence of Keiser is really in caring more about creating good golf for the sake of good golf and nothing else.

From that passion for golf's terroir, I suspect that within the next hundred years, there will be a courses peppering that Oregon highway from Port Orford to Florence like they do in Long Island today.


Matt,If they changed the tax code do you really think a club like Augusta would sell tee times? If they did at $1000 a head they would sell out. Then you would just criticize them for only being only available to the rich……
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2024, 04:44:17 PM »
Matt,If they changed the tax code do you really think a club like Augusta would sell tee times? If they did at $1000 a head they would sell out. Then you would just criticize them for only being only available to the rich……
I mean, yes, some would remain private for the sake of being private. I'm not sure what your argument is there? Augusta is already a for-profit corporation and not actually inhibited by the tax laws I'm talking about at all.

Let's be honest, Scotland has some private courses (Loch Lomond, Skibo, Renaissance), but the point is that they are few and far between. The reason why they are few and far between, is simply that many clubs would rather remain small clubs rather than grow their ranks for the sake of revenues. This means offering visitor tee times occasionally. The number of clubs that would have opened up their courses visitor play during the pandemic, for example, would have been enormous, as I personally know some folks that join up with a prestigious club in my area exactly because they needed members during the pandemic, and the club would have been otherwise inaccessible to them. When these major events happen, it normalizes the idea of limited visitor play, and once it's normalized, it's very difficult to justify undoing it (just ask the folks at Pasatiempo selling afternoon-only tee times for nearly $400 per round, even at twilight).

My point is where you look at areas where you're allowed to sell times to visitors, you tend to see most private clubs hosting visitors on a fairly regular, but very limited basis. That generates revenues for the club, and revenues for the state when they pay taxes on that income. Everyone wins.

Again, I'm not saying force the gates open with a crowbar or anything, I'm just saying we just make it actually legal for private clubs to tell visitors they can come play on a limited basis... if they want to. Everyone in these threads keeps telling me it's dumb because they wouldn't open up, and I keep saying, okay, cool, so lets still do it in case you're wrong. Literally nothing changes if we change the laws and I'm wrong, but everything about golf access changes if the laws change and I'm right.

---

As for the second half of your statement, you obviously don't know me very well. There are lots of people who will criticize the high prices of resorts like Pebble, but I'm not one of them. While extremely expensive, it's perfectly reasonable for even someone of modest means to save up to play Pebble or even Shadow Creek if they really want to. 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 08:21:10 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2024, 05:08:59 PM »
I am not criticizing Keiser for this, but are his courses "reasonably affordable, public golf"?  Just to pick one example, Bandon is $400 in the summer for non-resort guests.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 08:23:50 AM by Wayne_Kozun »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2024, 05:32:06 PM »
Kozun: I am not criticizing Keiser for this, but are his courses "reasonably affordable, public golf"?  Just to pick one example, Bandon is $400 in the summer for non-resort guests.



Want to know how great Mike Keiser is? Look at his sons (also has two daughters) Mike and Chris, who are invested in the same sort of golf that he was. Mike and Chris are spectacular, and will carry the mantle (fingers crossed) into the coming decades.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 08:13:48 AM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2024, 05:32:35 PM »
Matt - As far as I know, The Masters is operated under a for-profit corporation that is separate from ANGC.


And it would be difficult (from the standpoint of tax law) to separate the UBTI generated from non-member play from the various/several types of UBTI any other kind of 501 organization could generate.


And don't forget about the Unruh Act in Calif and its implications for suddenly "public access" clubs.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jeff Schley

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2024, 05:36:10 PM »
In the USA having a golf club/country club designated as a “private club” allows for exclusionary membership. If it was a public entity then it would be discrimination. You actually have to limit membership to qualify and are exempt from the Civil Rights Laws.


The IRS allows social clubs, 501 (c) (7) apply for tax exempt status, thus requiring no corporate income tax. Of course, if a club goes this route (which most do) they have to file a 990 each year divulging their finances. Sometimes the information like how much the GM/Superintendent etc. makes is surprising.


Depending on your political view, being “private” in the USA also allows for some clubs to discriminate legally and even gain tax subsidies in the process. Or you can simply adopt the broad view of private clubs as a legally allowed club for members and their guests to assemble and recreate.


It is more complicated in the USA for private golf clubs to just allow anyone to come in and golf there, it has a domino effect of which there are disadvantages for the private club.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tom_Doak

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2024, 05:53:00 PM »


The number of clubs that would have opened up their courses visitor play during the pandemic, for example, would have been enormous, as I personally know some folks that join up with a prestigious club in my area exactly because they needed members during the pandemic, and the club would have been otherwise inaccessible to them.


FYI, Crystal Downs took the opposite approach and suspended guest play entirely during COVID . . . it was only open for member play, to prevent the possible spread of COVID.  I had to tell Zac Blair and Tony Finau they couldn't come play with me.  [Zac came up the following summer.]

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2024, 07:30:19 PM »
Matt - As far as I know, The Masters is operated under a for-profit corporation that is separate from ANGC.
Augusta National is a for profit organization:

Quote
Augusta is obstinately private. Its leadership, embodied by its chairman, who serves for an indefinite term as a kind of sovereign and is the only person authorized to speak about the Masters, invariably deflects questions about club matters by saying that they are club matters. The club operates as a for-profit corporation. No one knows how much money it makes or has—except that it’s a lot, judging by the investments the club continually makes in the tournament, the course, the physical plant, and the expansion of its real-estate holdings.

Paumgarten, Nick. “Inside the Cultish Dreamworld of Augusta National.” The New Yorker, 14 June 2019.

Quote
Augusta National, Inc., doing business as Masters Golf Tournament, operates as a golf club. The Company conducts golf tournaments. Masters Golf Tournament provides automated teller machines, parking, telephones, and first aid facilities. Masters Golf Tournament serves customers in the State of Georgia.

Bloomberg Company Profile

The 501(c)3 affiliated with ANGC is Masters Tournament Foundation Inc.

If there is any part of their business/club that I'm mistaken about, please let me know. It can be quite difficult to just hunt this stuff down on the internet, but I've been looking at Augusta specifically for some time.


And it would be difficult (from the standpoint of tax law) to separate the UBTI generated from non-member play from the various/several types of UBTI any other kind of 501 organization could generate.

It would be easy if we changed the laws to mimic Scotland's, simply operate two cash registers, one that pays taxes, and one that doesn't. Allowing that taxable money to "inure" to the benefit of the club seems more than reasonable given that the exemption would effectively be a public service. Wrap that in requirements for extremely limited play, and you've effectively got a very reasonable way for clubs to earn a small amount of money in exchange for opening up their doors. This change would be especially easy if the exemption was made specifically for clubs with unique, artistic, and not-easily substituted resources like a golf course or an art gallery, so the club house, much like in Scotland, would remain private. It makes little sense for a club to raise some funds by providing access to a tennis court or swimming pool, but a one-of-a-kind artistic resource like a golf course or some unique natural or artistic feature, seems very reasonable to me.

And don't forget about the Unruh Act in Calif and its implications for suddenly "public access" clubs.

In the USA having a golf club/country club designated as a “private club” allows for exclusionary membership. If it was a public entity then it would be discrimination. You actually have to limit membership to qualify and are exempt from the Civil Rights Laws.

Hey now, don't you two go threatening me with a good time  ;D

FYI, Crystal Downs took the opposite approach and suspended guest play entirely during COVID . . . it was only open for member play, to prevent the possible spread of COVID.  I had to tell Zac Blair and Tony Finau they couldn't come play with me.  [Zac came up the following summer.]

Yea, this makes sense. I'm talking about the urban clubs in the Bay Area, who probably had the same policy, but also saw a significant loss of population through the worst of the pandemic. Areas near us (specifically Bolinas) that existed as retreats, like I presume that area of Michigan does, put up lots of signs and shut down all B&B's to keep any outsiders out. I suspect that clubs in these areas probably did not face any financial strain, as I would see their desirability increase dramatically, but urban centers did, as it appeared in the early days that the pandemic could keep us generally locked down for five-or-more years while a traditional vaccine could be developed. Thankfully that didn't come to pass.

---

All this is to say, good on Mike for changing the conversation about American golf. I think the exclusive-is-good tradition dies just a little bit every time one if his courses knocks another hallowed fixture off the lists.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 06:53:37 AM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Sean_A

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2024, 07:55:03 PM »
Perhaps it is easy to change tax laws, but I would think there needs to be an impetus from those concerned. Given the status quote for so long, I guess those concerned aren’t anxious to change tax laws. It’s small beer.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2024, 08:13:41 PM »
Perhaps it is easy to change tax laws, but I would think there needs to be an impetus from those concerned. Given the status quote for so long, I guess those concerned aren’t anxious to change tax laws. It’s small beer.

Ciao
I mean, again, I don't disagree. My only point is that it's a change that could really benefit the American golfing public, and everyone involved would likely have a neutral or positive outcome from it. Thus, there really isn't really a constituency actively against it, per se, which means that it only takes on influential person talking to an influential legislator to make it happen. Stuff like that happens all the time. I doubt it will happen, but when the culture changes, the laws tends to change with it, and Mike Keiser is certainly changing the culture.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 08:15:42 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Sean_A

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2024, 08:43:23 PM »
Perhaps it is easy to change tax laws, but I would think there needs to be an impetus from those concerned. Given the status quote for so long, I guess those concerned aren’t anxious to change tax laws. It’s small beer.

Ciao
I mean, again, I don't disagree. My only point is that it's a change that could really benefit the American golfing public, and everyone involved would likely have a neutral or positive outcome from it. Thus, there really isn't really a constituency actively against it, per se, which means that it only takes on influential person talking to an influential legislator to make it happen. Stuff like that happens all the time. I doubt it will happen, but when the culture changes, the laws tends to change with it, and Mike Keiser is certainly changing the culture.

Kaiser didn’t change private culture. He built a golf empire as a response to private culture.

I don’t disagree that it would be awesome for some folks if all courses were available on pay to play basis. If private member clubs think it’s great it will happen, but I am not convinced they think it would be great to become pay and play clubs.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2024, 09:00:57 PM »
If private member clubs think it’s great it will happen, but I am not convinced they think it would be great to become pay and play clubs.
Again... I will let this topic go, but every time I find myself in this discussion, people keep presenting the change as if it were turning private clubs into pay-to-play clubs. Again, that is not at all what this proposal would be. It is only that they could offer visitors an option play some limited rounds if they want to.

It's providing the clubs with an option, that if they wanted to they'd be legally allow to offer limited play without completely changing their corporate structure. That's it.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 09:09:37 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2024, 05:14:54 AM »


The number of clubs that would have opened up their courses visitor play during the pandemic, for example, would have been enormous, as I personally know some folks that join up with a prestigious club in my area exactly because they needed members during the pandemic, and the club would have been otherwise inaccessible to them.


FYI, Crystal Downs took the opposite approach and suspended guest play entirely during COVID . . . it was only open for member play, to prevent the possible spread of COVID.  I had to tell Zac Blair and Tony Finau they couldn't come play with me.  [Zac came up the following summer.]


The same guidelines were enforced at Mountain Lake. Member play only for the 2020-21 season.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2024, 08:16:40 AM »
There goes TD, dropping names again ...

Oh, wait, I drop his name all the time!

Never mind ~
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Sean_A

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2024, 08:21:40 AM »
If private member clubs think it’s great it will happen, but I am not convinced they think it would be great to become pay and play clubs.
Again... I will let this topic go, but every time I find myself in this discussion, people keep presenting the change as if it were turning private clubs into pay-to-play clubs. Again, that is not at all what this proposal would be. It is only that they could offer visitors an option play some limited rounds if they want to.

It's providing the clubs with an option, that if they wanted to they'd be legally allow to offer limited play without completely changing their corporate structure. That's it.


Clubs do have limited outside play...corporate and charity days and the odd help a person out situation. Its not like the UK, but thats ok. I think you are barking up a tree that doesn't exist. If you are going to dream, dream big...world peace  :D


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2024, 08:27:18 AM »
I am not criticizing Keiser for this, but are his courses "reasonably affordable, public golf"?  Just to pick one example, Bandon is $400 in the summer for non-resort guests.



Want to know how great Mike Keiser is? Look at his sons (also has two daughters) Mike and Chris, who are invested in the same sort of golf that he was. Mike and Chris are spectacular, and will carry the mantle (fingers crossed) into the coming decades.

I am very happy that Keiser and his family are building world class resort courses.  I am just questioning whether they are affordable.  The courses at these resorts are pretty much as expensive as PH #2 and just a bit less than Pebble. I am fine with that and I visit Cabot Links, a place that he helped to make possible, on a very regular basis.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2024, 08:38:22 AM »
The courses at Bandon had over 257,000 rounds last year. If it weren’t affordable, I’m guessing it wouldn’t be so busy. Just try to get dates to bring a couple foursomes to Bandon. You might have to wait more than a year to get on the property.



Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2024, 08:40:51 AM »
The courses at Bandon had over 257,000 rounds last year. If it weren’t affordable, I’m guessing it wouldn’t be so busy. Just try to get dates to bring a couple foursomes to Bandon. You might have to wait more than a year to get on the property.
Doesn't Pebble also sell out every round - so by your argument Pebble is an affordable golf course?

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2024, 11:42:12 AM »
Wayne,


Check the winter rates for Bandon.  The are around a third of the summer cost.  And the lodging is cheaper as well.


Affordable is a subjective term.  Bandon can certainly be less expensive than just about every other comparable option.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2024, 09:30:04 PM »

I am very happy that Keiser and his family are building world class resort courses.  I am just questioning whether they are affordable.  The courses at these resorts are pretty much as expensive as PH #2 and just a bit less than Pebble. I am fine with that and I visit Cabot Links, a place that he helped to make possible, on a very regular basis.


Wayne:


Affordable is in the eye of the beholder.  And as someone who's 63, and who learned the value of money a long time ago, I shudder when I see some of these prices.  Full disclosure:  the most I've ever paid to play a round of golf was $325 at a private course in Japan thirty years ago, when their economy was booming, and $325 was worth a lot more than it is today.  But most of the time, I play for free, because of what I do for a living.


But I have to say that $500 is not that much to pay for a top-shelf experience.  You would spend that much to dine at the best restaurant in any big city in America.  You'd spend that much to get a ticket to a playoff game in any of the major sports.  I spend close to that much for hotel rooms half the places I go.  I even spent $500 last week to sit down on the floor for a WNBA game in Indiana (!) . . . and I can tell you, I think a round of golf at Pacific Dunes would be at least as entertaining as that was  ;-)




Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades......
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2024, 07:57:22 AM »
But I have to say that $500 is not that much to pay for a top-shelf experience. You would spend that much to dine at the best restaurant in any big city in America.  You'd spend that much to get a ticket to a playoff game in any of the major sports.  I spend close to that much for hotel rooms half the places I go.  I even spent $500 last week to sit down on the floor for a WNBA game in Indiana (!)
I probably wouldn't pay $500 for any of those things. Might not pay half that. Worth and value are different for everyone. We used to have people ask if such and such Scotty Cameron putters were "worth" $500 or $2500 or whatever… I'd say "someone might pay $20 for a painting that another person would value at $20M."

For $500, my wife and I would rather go on several day trips or have ten pretty good meals out rather than one super fancy meal. For $500 I'd rather play a local course with two or three good buddies ten times than play one course once, especially if it's with strangers. Heck, I considered whether to "splurge" to play the Old Course when I was there. (I didn't consider it for very long, but it wasn't an immediate "whatever it costs!" either.)

I wouldn't call $500 rounds "affordable" though. But golf is a wealthier sport, so…

Or, to put it another way… I'm glad you're rich, Tom.  ;D
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Greg Hohman

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Re: Not that Mike Keiser needs more accolades...... New
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2024, 08:20:22 AM »
A friend went in March. AM: $175, PM (2:40): $90. The Bandon webcams enabled vicariousness on Sheep Ranch, Pac Dunes and Old Mac. He had days in the sun, literally and figuratively.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2024, 09:37:51 AM by Greg Hohman »
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