U-S-A

[Mike Worth]

The problem I have is I want the best players in the world in events like the majors.  USA golf should also want the best American golfers representing team USA in the Olympics.  The OWGR is no longer a tool to accomplish that objective.


Regarding the thread title, I cringed whenever the U-S-A chant occurred at the US Open.  I do appreciate the chant when the participants are officially representing team USA, like the olympics.

I too cringed at the USA chants. As a retired Army officer, I felt it was misplaced and jingoistic.


I don’t know if Bryson should have been selected for the Olympics. But being in LIV and taking “Saudi money“ should not have been a factor.  There’s nothing wrong or even immoral about that.


I’m also thankful that I don’t have a level of piety to presume my views are “our values.”  My 2 tours in Afghanistan (one at age 48, I turned 50 during the 2nd) and two separate jobs in Army casualty operations may have instilled in me a level of humility that prevents me from assuming I speak for everyone.


I do respect Bryson for his turnaround and showing growth and maturity on a national stage.

[Tom_Doak]

Somehow people are equating Olympic Golf with golf majors and I am sorry but it isn't close.  Yes, Olympic Gold is the epitome of some sports but not all.  The money, prestige, status, etc. are not there with the Olympic golf. The guys are in contention are very wealthy and I am willing to put my neck out and say that if they were not able to participate in the Olympics it would not mean as much as compared to not being able to play in a major.

I think that varies very much by player.  It seemed to mean a very great deal to Rickie Fowler and Lexi Thompson.  Much less to Spieth and McIlroy and others who sat out Rio.

Certainly, opinion about the Olympics is different for different players.  It did seem to mean more to the Americans who have not won a major - Rickie, Kuchar in 2016, Xander in 2020.


If there is any doubt whether it has achieved “major” status, you need only think of Schauffle, who won his first real major last month.  Did anyone (including him) suggest in the moment that it was really his second?

[Wayne_Kozun]

The bigger problem is that only 4 players from one country can compete.  Everyone in the top 15 or 20 should be in the event.

That's not just a problem with golf.  Two of my sons went to school with a girl who's ranked in the World top 10 in triathlon but isn't guaranteed a place in the GB Olympic team because they can only select two athletes.

Exactly, this is just more visible in golf.  It is possible that both the US and Jamaica have 10 sprinters that are in the 25 fastest sprinters in the world.  But they only get three each in the Olympics.  But none of us follow the Official World Sprinter Rankings.

[Wayne_Kozun]

The money, prestige, status, etc. are not there with the Olympic golf. The guys are in contention are very wealthy and I am willing to put my neck out and say that if they were not able to participate in the Olympics it would not mean as much as compared to not being able to play in a major.

I think this varies by country and what you have stated is a very American-centric point of view.  Look at a country like Ireland.  They typically win about 3-4 medals in each Olympics.  The US wins about 110.  Every medal earned by an Irish athlete is a big deal.  If Rory or Shane Lowry or Leona Maguire win a medal I bet it will be a very big deal and I bet that it will mean a lot to that athlete.

[Michael Morandi]

The problem I have is I want the best players in the world in events like the majors.  USA golf should also want the best American golfers representing team USA in the Olympics.  The OWGR is no longer a tool to accomplish that objective.


Regarding the thread title, I cringed whenever the U-S-A chant occurred at the US Open.  I do appreciate the chant when the participants are officially representing team USA, like the olympics.

I too cringed at the USA chants. As a retired Army officer, I felt it was misplaced and jingoistic.


I don’t know if Bryson should have been selected for the Olympics. But being in LIV and taking “Saudi money“ should not have been a factor.  There’s nothing wrong or even immoral about that.


I’m also thankful that I don’t have a level of piety to presume my views are “our values.”  My 2 tours in Afghanistan (one at age 48, I turned 50 during the 2nd) and two separate jobs in Army casualty operations may have instilled in me a level of humility that prevents me from assuming I speak for everyone.


I do respect Bryson for his turnaround and showing growth and maturity on a national stage.

Wow.  You just hit the nail on the head about the divisiveness of our country. There are no core values that we share? Just do what suits you. Forget September 11 or Kashoggi. Even Phil knew he was doing a deal with the devil. He knows LIV is about sportwashing. If you look at their event galleries, it certainly not about growing the game or making a profit. Am I allowed to say Jan 6 violated our values and that the peaceful transfer of power is central to our democracy?  If this makes me pious, I gladly accept the accusation.

[Rob Marshall]

Michael,
Unless you are driving an electric car, you are supporting the Saudi’s. We do business with them every day. You don’t have to like it but that’s the reality of it. My initial reaction to LIV was the same as yours. I won’t watch it. Could care less about it. The 9/11 ties are sickening and I didn’t know anyone who perished.

[Michael Morandi]

I do drive an electric car that is charged by solar panels at my club.  The USA is a net exporter of primary energy.  I’m sure we import Saudi oil in the mix but not as much as in the past.  To me there is a difference between our country cutting deals with the Saudis because they are a key actor in any chance for Middle East peace, and an athlete taking their money knowing it is meant to wash over their abysmal human rights record, especially when there is plenty of money to be made as a golfer here. I spoke my peace. I’m moving on. I do like the new Bryson. Time will tell if the change is genuine.

[Mike Worth]

The problem I have is I want the best players in the world in events like the majors.  USA golf should also want the best American golfers representing team USA in the Olympics.  The OWGR is no longer a tool to accomplish that objective.


Regarding the thread title, I cringed whenever the U-S-A chant occurred at the US Open.  I do appreciate the chant when the participants are officially representing team USA, like the olympics.

I too cringed at the USA chants. As a retired Army officer, I felt it was misplaced and jingoistic.


I don’t know if Bryson should have been selected for the Olympics. But being in LIV and taking “Saudi money“ should not have been a factor.  There’s nothing wrong or even immoral about that.


I’m also thankful that I don’t have a level of piety to presume my views are “our values.”  My 2 tours in Afghanistan (one at age 48, I turned 50 during the 2nd) and two separate jobs in Army casualty operations may have instilled in me a level of humility that prevents me from assuming I speak for everyone.


I do respect Bryson for his turnaround and showing growth and maturity on a national stage.

Wow.  You just hit the nail on the head about the divisiveness of our country. There are no core values that we share? Just do what suits you. Forget September 11 or Kashoggi. Even Phil knew he was doing a deal with the devil. He knows LIV is about sportwashing. If you look at their event galleries, it certainly not about growing the game or making a profit. Am I allowed to say Jan 6 violated our values and that the peaceful transfer of power is central to our democracy?  If this makes me pious, I gladly accept the accusation.

We are all allowed to think for ourselves and speak our minds.  Saying your beliefs are “our values” is pious and arrogant.  You speak for yourself — not others.


There is nothing wrong with taking LIV money.  Nothing.


I’d also add dragging Jan 6 into a golf debate is a non sequitor.  You should delete that.

[Anthony Butler]

I’m ok with our team being comprised of players who did not take Saudi money. They represent our values.

Who exactly is the "we" in your values?  American companies are all over Saudi Arabia, and the U.S. government's official policy toward Saudi money is hardly adverse.


In fact, just before coming here, I was reading an article in The Guardian suggesting that the current U.S. government is offering a defense treaty to Saudi Arabia if they will normalize ties with Israel.


The whole trope of dirty Saudi money was promoted by the PGA Tour to try and save the PGA Tour.  If you want to not watch Bryson DeChambeau for taking the money, that's your call, but the PGA TOUR ≠ America, and they should not be the ones to decide who represents us in the Olympics.

Tom - If you had continued to read on you would have discovered that the defense treaty which you mention was part of the Abraham Accords initiated by Trump son-in-law and self-proclaimed smartest guy in any room, Jared Kushner. For his efforts at 'normailzing' relations in the Middle East, he was handsomely rewarded upon leaving the White House with a $2bn investment in his management fund by MBS - the very same guy funding LIV.

I know people who have gone out on their own to start investment funds having outperformed the S&P by 5% a year for a couple of decades and it takes them 5 years to get to a $1bn under management. Yet somehow this guy gets a $2bn investment never having worked in equities, let alone managed a fund. Whatever your beef is with the PGA Tour and specifically Jay Monahan, you'd be hard pressed to say at this moment in time any money that had passed through their hands was this dirty.

BTW  it's not the PGA Tour that decides who represents the US in the Olympics in golf. The US Olympic Committee uses the OWGR at a certain cut off date - in this case recently concluded US Open - just as they have for the last two Olympics when golf was played. The board that manages the OWGR decided that LIV Golf events did not meet the criteria to be awarded points. Much like the Zurich teams event which is part of the PGA Tour and awards Fedex Cup points. 

[Michael Morandi]

The problem I have is I want the best players in the world in events like the majors.  USA golf should also want the best American golfers representing team USA in the Olympics.  The OWGR is no longer a tool to accomplish that objective.


Regarding the thread title, I cringed whenever the U-S-A chant occurred at the US Open.  I do appreciate the chant when the participants are officially representing team USA, like the olympics.

I too cringed at the USA chants. As a retired Army officer, I felt it was misplaced and jingoistic.


I don’t know if Bryson should have been selected for the Olympics. But being in LIV and taking “Saudi money“ should not have been a factor.  There’s nothing wrong or even immoral about that.


I’m also thankful that I don’t have a level of piety to presume my views are “our values.”  My 2 tours in Afghanistan (one at age 48, I turned 50 during the 2nd) and two separate jobs in Army casualty operations may have instilled in me a level of humility that prevents me from assuming I speak for everyone.


I do respect Bryson for his turnaround and showing growth and maturity on a national stage.

Wow.  You just hit the nail on the head about the divisiveness of our country. There are no core values that we share? Just do what suits you. Forget September 11 or Kashoggi. Even Phil knew he was doing a deal with the devil. He knows LIV is about sportwashing. If you look at their event galleries, it certainly not about growing the game or making a profit. Am I allowed to say Jan 6 violated our values and that the peaceful transfer of power is central to our democracy?  If this makes me pious, I gladly accept the accusation.

We are all allowed to think for ourselves and speak our minds.  Saying your beliefs are “our values” is pious and arrogant.  You speak for yourself — not others.


There is nothing wrong with taking LIV money.  Nothing.


I’d also add dragging Jan 6 into a golf debate is a non sequitor.  You should delete that.

While I disagree with you, I do want to acknowledge and thank you for your military service to our country. You’ve done more to defend us than I ever will.

[Bruce Katona]

Somewhere around 80% of athletes who compete at any given Olympic Games don't win a medal; they're attending and competing to represent their country as a competitor who is at the pinnancle of their ability.  The Olympic Dream Basketball Team players didn't need to play, they did it for the USA and to put on a show for the fans.


Bryson & Morikowa both deserve to compete in Paris - Bryson is the defending Champion of his Country's National Open Tournament for heavens sake.  I'm hoping Wyndham Clark represents this country well in The Games.


Having known Olympians, one who who actually won a Silver Medal, they wasn't in it for the $$$.

[Chris Hughes]

Might be great at Physics, but cannot read the room.(Arguably the most popular golfer in the world right now.)Oh, and they remained loyal to the PGA Tour. (Not a prerequisite for participating in the Olympics.)

Bryson is currently #2 on the Ryder Cup points list and has 3.6X the points vs. Wyndham Clark.Bottom line -- the formerly great United States of America is not sending the best team of golfer possible to the Olympics. 

[Rob Marshall]

Might be great at Physics, but cannot read the room.(Arguably the most popular golfer in the world right now.)Oh, and they remained loyal to the PGA Tour. (Not a prerequisite for participating in the Olympics.)

Bryson is currently #2 on the Ryder Cup points list and has 3.6X the points vs. Wyndham Clark.Bottom line -- the formerly great United States of America is not sending the best team of golfer possible to the Olympics. 

And the most exciting women’s basketball probably ever, isn’t on the team.
Bryson has had two great tournaments. He hasn’t really set the world on fire prior to the PGA and the Open. He F’d up. He trusted Greg Norman. He got compensated for that mistake. Not going to lose any sleep with him off the team.

[Pete_Pittock]

Chris and Rob,
Golf is not a team sport at the Olympics
If it were, I'd suggest every country gets four players, and only one player from each country plays per day with cumulative scoring, much like a 4x400 relay (I was watching 30 for 30 today)

[Mike Bodo]

The divide that exists on this issue won't matter six months from now once the PIF and PGA Enterpriises iron out their differences and Yassir gets a seat on the board. This isn't about sportswashing anymore and never really was. All Yassir and the Saudi PIF have ever wanted was to be legitimized in the world of professional men's golf. Unfortunately, to get there he/they had to start a rogue league and pay un-Godly sums of money to purge some of the PGAT's best players in order for LIV Golf to be taken as a serious entity and threat to the PGAT.


Problem is the PIF's been bleeding money from the get go on LIV and they want out. They're smart investors and are not about to continue throwing good money after bad. All they want is to be an equal investment partner in PGA Tour Enterprises, similar to SSG. They'll get there, eventually, but the sticking points have been how best to re-integrate the best players that left back to the PGAT and how those with non-expired LIV contracts will be compensated. Not all players that left will be welcome back. Many will have play on lesser tours and work their way back. LIV, as we currently know it, won't exist in its current form. There will be a team golf component within the PGAT structure, but it won't look anything remotely like LIV.


The war is over and the PGAT won. Now it's just a matter of sorting out the messy details in order to reunite the game. That said, I don't see LIV Golf surviving past this year, unless something drastic were to happen, such as inking a major US network TV deal. Golf fans have spoken and the majority do not want 54-hole, no cut, shotgun start, nightclub music blaring, team golf. It's fairly obivious even to the untrained eye.

[Craig Sweet]

There is nothing wrong with the Saudi's making money???   Yeah, a country that relies a lot on slave labor....Tell me you supported the apartheid regime in South Africa without telling me...

[SL_Solow]

I will stay out of the politics even though I hold some strong views.  I understand why some players chose to take "generational money".  But when they did so, they knew or should have known that they would not get World Ranking Points and all that would come with that fact.  If you make a contract you get the benefits and the burdens.  Accordingly I have little sympathy for those complaining about the "fairness" of exclusions.  They made their choice.

[Tim_Weiman]

There is nothing wrong with the Saudi's making money???   Yeah, a country that relies a lot on slave labor....Tell me you supported the apartheid regime in South Africa without telling me...

Craig,


Actually, most of the wealth Saudi’s enjoy today was the product of very well paid foreigners. I have oil industry friends that can attest to that.


A posting in Saudi wasn’t for everyone, but it was lucrative and still is today. There just aren’t as many opportunities.


Tim

[Daryl David]

So true. I have a some friends that are very thankful they had the opportunity to “serve” the Saudis. It has certainly enhanced their lives and their families. We all do things that some might think objectionable. We don’t all have the luxury of turning down making a living for so called principles. I judge no one, let only the LIV players.

[Chris Hughes]

Might be great at Physics, but cannot read the room.(Arguably the most popular golfer in the world right now.)Oh, and they remained loyal to the PGA Tour. (Not a prerequisite for participating in the Olympics.)

Bryson is currently #2 on the Ryder Cup points list and has 3.6X the points vs. Wyndham Clark.Bottom line -- the formerly great United States of America is not sending the best team of golfer possible to the Olympics. 

And the most exciting women’s basketball probably ever, isn’t on the team.Caitlin's absence is also inexcusable.Bryson has had two great tournaments. He's #10 in the Official World Golf Rankings.He hasn’t really set the world on fire prior to the PGA and the Open. Well there was that 58 at The Greenbrier.  Oh, and he's #10 in the OWGR and #2 on the PGA of America Official Ryder Cup points list.
He F’d up. He trusted Greg Norman. He got compensated for that mistake. That's the beauty of being a citizen of the formerly great united States of America, everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Not going to lose any sleep with him off the team.
Clearly he isn't either -- but it's still wrong.

[Chris Hughes]

Problem is the PIF's been bleeding money from the get go on LIV and they want out. They're smart investors and are not about to continue throwing good money after bad.

This exact narrative was being put forth a year ago, but LIV is still thriving.

The war is over and the PGAT won. Now it's just a matter of sorting out the messy details in order to reunite the game. That said, I don't see LIV Golf surviving past this year, unless something drastic were to happen, such as inking a major US network TV deal.

Ditto.  Failure was "imminent" a year ago, whoopsy!

Golf fans have spoken and the majority do not want 54-hole, no cut, shotgun start, nightclub music blaring, team golf.

Where?

https://x.com/UsedGolfFacts/status/1804212588592422992

[Wayne_Kozun]

Bryson is currently #15 on the LIV standings, so even  if LIV events were included in the OWGR he might not be in the top 4 ranked US golfers.

[Tony Ristola]

I’m ok with our team being comprised of players who did not take Saudi money. They represent our values.

Who exactly is the "we" in your values?  American companies are all over Saudi Arabia, and the U.S. government's official policy toward Saudi money is hardly adverse.


In fact, just before coming here, I was reading an article in The Guardian suggesting that the current U.S. government is offering a defense treaty to Saudi Arabia if they will normalize ties with Israel.


The whole trope of dirty Saudi money was promoted by the PGA Tour to try and save the PGA Tour.  If you want to not watch Bryson DeChambeau for taking the money, that's your call, but the PGA TOUR ≠ America, and they should not be the ones to decide who represents us in the Olympics.

When this "Saudi sports-washing" mantra and bashing broke, I wondered if anyone yammering this tune had ever heard of China, and its record?


With the state of what is called reporting today, it just could be that people were unaware of what is and has happened in China. Tiananmen Square anyone? It's not like the regime has become more civil since then.


Is the PGA Tour devoid of Chinese connections? Oh! They have a PGA Tour China. How interesting. Did any "journalists" bring this up, or did they ignore this and other connections, deciding instead to take a side in the fight?


And now the PGA Tour is in bed with the Saudi's. They are taking Saudi money, or will soon. Talk about egg on one's face!


I agree, the PGA Tour is no longer the entity to decide who is Olympic eligible in the US. Pre-LIV there was a strong case for them, post-LIV... no.


The PGA Tour is a dead boring product, has been for ages. That LIV came about and created some disruption is a good thing. If only the governing bodies could be "disrupted".

[Wayne_Kozun]

PGA Tour China ceased operations during Covid and never returned. 

I don't think the PGA Tour was ever the entity to decide who makes the Olympics team.  All sports have national governing bodies that make the decision in conjunction with the national olympic committees.  The NBA doesn't make the decision on who plays in the Olympics, it is USA Basketball, or Canada Basketball or whatever.  Same for hockey and the NHL, etc.
I think that would be the USGA in golf, but I am not 100% sure.

[Kalen Braley]

The Caitlin Clark issue is an interesting one. 

She's certainly crazy popular and IMO the greatest college player ever, man or woman. But the pros are struggling with it as the vast majority of them are literally playing for their livelihood with $100k per year salaries as opposed to Caitlin who made millions in college on NIL and recently signed a $28 million deal with Nike.  Jealousy is a bitch.

That being said, I have no issue with her being left off the Olympic team, if we're basing it on current skill right now as opposed to potential.