Pinehurst #2: Architecturally a 10 but visually a ...

[Matt Kardash]

Matt, why is 10 at Riviera a superior hole to 3 at No. 2?


Which hole at No. 2 do you consider to be closest to "iconic" stature, and why? What keeps that hole from reaching true "iconic" stature?


Alternatively, which hole at No. 2 is the least iconic, or just the least "good"?

Ask anyone to talk about great short par 4s and see how many name Pinehurst's 3rd hole before Riv 10. I am going to say close to 0%

I think my point is that no hole is iconic, and no hole is least good. They are all variations of super solid holes.

[Jason Thurman]

Sounds like No. 2 needs a signature hole. Maybe they can turn 15 into an island green or something.


But just thinking architecturally, I think 3 at No. 2 is at least as interesting for professional play as 10 at Riviera. 10 at Riv is fantastic in concept with the three different intended routes of play from the tee. But in practice, it seems like everyone just bangs the ball somewhere up near the green and hopes to get up and down. I don't find it all that tactically interesting as a result. Even for recreational play, it's pretty clear that anyone who has the distance to get within 30 or 40 yards of hole-high should just do so, since the layup options leave really difficult shots from angles that are somewhere between "disadvantageous" and "impossible."


3 at No. 2 features really similar angles and options... you can lay it back just short of the right-side bunker that juts out into the fairway to leave a distance wedge, take it over that bunker and leave a pitch, or take a rip at the green and take your chances. The green's orientation is a little more favorable from the left side as compared with Riviera's 10th - you've got a better chance of spinning an approach and holding the putting surface at No. 2 whereas at Riviera the layups are really just fool's gold. No matter what angle you take on 10 at Riviera, you're going to be facing something akin to a recovery shot to a teensy tiny target for your second. The fact that you can trade some distance for a truly advantageous angle on 3 at No. 2 makes me think that it's the slightly more tactically interesting hole in 2024.


Donald Ross seemed like a pretty low key guy. All those years drinking morning coffee right alongside the 3rd fairway, and he never thought to icon it up. Real missed opportunity.


This course, with its shortcomings in iconography, also features Ben Hogan's purported favorite par 4 and the hole that inspired the following: https://golf.com/travel/iconic-holes-pinehurst-no-2-hole-5/

[Matt Kardash]

Sounds like No. 2 needs a signature hole. Maybe they can turn 15 into an island green or something.

Yeah, this is exactly what I was getting at. 

[Ronald Montesano]

What Jason Thuman wrote, two blips previously, is what I've been hoping to see. I love when Scott Warren and Ciao Baby tell me that I'm missing something. What I really want them to tell me, IS WHAT I'M MISSING.

Break it down like Jason did. Expand and elaborate and extrapolate in more than 15 words, five of which are an insult. I'm willing to learn and am quite willing to be the guy who yells out "Now I get it." The Deuce is a terrific golf course, and I'm trying to understand how it is a 10 architecturally, as I don't see it as a 10 visually (which doesn't matter, as long as the architecture is sound.)

[Sean_A]

What Jason Thuman wrote, two blips previously, is what I've been hoping to see. I love when Scott Warren and Ciao Baby tell me that I'm missing something. What I really want them to tell me, IS WHAT I'M MISSING.

Break it down like Jason did. Expand and elaborate and extrapolate in more than 15 words, five of which are an insult. I'm willing to learn and am quite willing to be the guy who yells out "Now I get it." The Deuce is a terrific golf course, and I'm trying to understand how it is a 10 architecturally, as I don't see it as a 10 visually (which doesn't matter, as long as the architecture is sound.)

I think you are referencing me in this post?

You took my post to be an insult toward you? That was not my intention.

I never thought to dive into a deep thesis as to why Pinehurst is a 10 partly because I never said it was a 10. I have never said any course is a 10.

Ciao

[cary lichtenstein]

A 10? Impossible to give this course a 10. I had lunch with my buddies today, nobody wants to travel there to play it, ridiculous

[Joe Zucker]

Ron, here are my thoughts on why it's awesome.


I believe Pinehurst #2 is a 10 (or close to it) because it is the most tempting courses I've ever played.  Every hole is defended by little more than a mound, a run off, a false front, etc.  You stand in the middle of any fairway and think you can hit the shot.  Five minutes later, you've made double because the precision it takes to hit the tempting shot is something you only have 20% of the time.  I can't think of another course where you'd make more bogeys from 100 yards out.


Contrast this with Sawgrass, you stand in the middle of many fairways and are scared to hit the shot. Water or bunkers with steep grass faces stare back at you and you know it's unlikely you'll hit the perfect carry number on your 9 iron.  Sawgrass is awesome, but it's one of the scariest courses I've ever played. 


In short, #2 tempts and then punishes you. While many courses show you the repercussions of a bad shot more obviously and dissuade you from even trying the required shot.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Ron, here are my thoughts on why it's awesome.


I believe Pinehurst #2 is a 10 (or close to it) because it is the most tempting courses I've ever played.  Every hole is defended by little more than a mound, a run off, a false front, etc.  You stand in the middle of any fairway and think you can hit the shot.  Five minutes later, you've made double because the precision it takes to hit the tempting shot is something you only have 20% of the time.  I can't think of another course where you'd make more bogeys from 100 yards out.


Contrast this with Sawgrass, you stand in the middle of many fairways and are scared to hit the shot. Water or bunkers with steep grass faces stare back at you and you know it's unlikely you'll hit the perfect carry number on your 9 iron.  Sawgrass is awesome, but it's one of the scariest courses I've ever played. 


In short, #2 tempts and then punishes you. While many courses show you the repercussions of a bad shot more obviously and dissuade you from even trying the required shot.

Joe, I really like this description of the course. I've always thought that No. 2 seems a bit too punishing to be on my "to visit" list, but I think you just convinced me that I should make the effort to get out there.

[Mark Pearce]

A 10? Impossible to give this course a 10. I had lunch with my buddies today, nobody wants to travel there to play it, ridiculous

Of the three courses that Majors have been played on this year so far, it's the one I'd most like to travel to play.

[Thomas Dai]

A 10? Impossible to give this course a 10. I had lunch with my buddies today, nobody wants to travel there to play it, ridiculous

Of the three courses that Majors have been played on this year so far, it's the one I'd most like to travel to play.

+1
atb

[Peter Sayegh]

I can see what makes it a visual 10. Wouldn’t mind someone explaining what makes it an architectural 10.

Pinehurst does maintain the greens too fast now during everyday play; when they were 9 or 10 on the Stimpmeter as well as the Doak scale, it was a lot more fun for resort guests.  But I don't mind them turning the dial to 11 for a major, and it seemed to produce compelling golf.

Tom, you've spent enough time at Pinehurst to make these declarations?

I'll defer to your expertise about the current green speeds but I gotta question how many Pinehurst resort guests you've played with or surveyed.

[Peter Sayegh]

I’ve posted on social media that I’m not convinced that the viewing public is ready for three U.S. Open tournaments at Pinehurst #2, over a twelve-year span. I like the course and I love the sandhills, but the deuce is not a visually-stunning course. The topography, with the exception of holes four and five, is flattish.

#8 cannot be described as flattish.
TV did not show the elevation of the 13th green.

[Joe Zucker]

Ron, here are my thoughts on why it's awesome.


I believe Pinehurst #2 is a 10 (or close to it) because it is the most tempting courses I've ever played.  Every hole is defended by little more than a mound, a run off, a false front, etc.  You stand in the middle of any fairway and think you can hit the shot.  Five minutes later, you've made double because the precision it takes to hit the tempting shot is something you only have 20% of the time.  I can't think of another course where you'd make more bogeys from 100 yards out.


Contrast this with Sawgrass, you stand in the middle of many fairways and are scared to hit the shot. Water or bunkers with steep grass faces stare back at you and you know it's unlikely you'll hit the perfect carry number on your 9 iron.  Sawgrass is awesome, but it's one of the scariest courses I've ever played. 


In short, #2 tempts and then punishes you. While many courses show you the repercussions of a bad shot more obviously and dissuade you from even trying the required shot.

Joe, I really like this description of the course. I've always thought that No. 2 seems a bit too punishing to be on my "to visit" list, but I think you just convinced me that I should make the effort to get out there.

I think you should definitely see it.  There are spots that are quite severe and a little silly when rolling at 11 or 12, but as long as you have a good attitude about putting off a green 1-2 times, it's a very fun and playable course.  There are certainly spots where you'll have no hope of getting close.  But in my 2 rounds there, when you have a ball roll back to your feet or off the green, if you make a slight adjustment you can easily hit a better shot to 10 or 20 feet. 


The challenge of failing and then immediately succeeding on your second or third attempt is fun for me.  Obviously golf is all about doing it the first time, but that fact that success is possible at #2 makes it my favorite course in North America I've played.