Rough consistency

[Mike H]

What is everyone's opinion on primary rough consistency?  Should courses predominatnly only have one type of grass in their rough or is it acceptable for there to be various types of grasses(bluegrass, bent, bermuda, etc)?  Am I the only one who thinks the rough should be consistent or do most golfers not care if they they could be in a different kind of grass every time they are in the rough on the same course?

I have to assume if a course has multiple types of grasses in their rough it's due to the maintenance cost to eradicate the invasive grasses or the super hasn't made it a priority to provide constant rough.  Thoughts?

[Rob Marshall]

We have two around our greens. When we did a bunker renovation the new grass was used on the bunker faces and used to sod where bunkers were removed. The new grass is much more coarse. Wish we never used it.


Interestingly I played Crag Burn in Buffalo last week and they had the exact same grass wrapped around their greens in about a 1 foot strip. Looked like they may have made the fringe smaller. If the ball went 2 feet over the green you had a completely different shot than if it was in the new strip.

[Tommy Williamsen]

What is everyone's opinion on primary rough consistency?  Should courses predominatnly only have one type of grass in their rough or is it acceptable for there to be various types of grasses(bluegrass, bent, bermuda, etc)?  Am I the only one who thinks the rough should be consistent or do most golfers not care if they they could be in a different kind of grass every time they are in the rough on the same course?

I have to assume if a course has multiple types of grasses in their rough it's due to the maintenance cost to eradicate the invasive grasses or the super hasn't made it a priority to provide constant rough.  Thoughts?

[Tom Bacsanyi]

It is highly unlikely that any member of this site plays out of a monostand of rough, or fairways, or even greens for that matter unless the course is brand new, or was completely renovated recently. Superintendents are more concerned with keeping non-grasses out of the rough, like dandelions, thistle, clover, sedges, etc. etc. than trying to keep a monostand of whatever species are considered "desirable" in rough. There is no chemical regime that will kill one grass over the other, unless you are talking about perhaps Poacure, but if you are spraying Poacure in the rough than you are Augusta National.


The course I worked at for many years had mostly bluegrass, but also rye, various fescues, poa annua, poa trivialis, in addition to dandelion, clover, sedges necrotic ring spot, etc etc. And the course was considered fairly elite. Point being, the priority is to have grass in the rough, any grass. Which particular grass is is not of particular concern, as the golfer typically doesn't care as long as it's a fairly consistent height (aka mowed at a reasonable frequency), and is not bare dirt or weeds.

[Adam Lawrence]

It is highly unlikely that any member of this site plays out of a monostand of rough, or fairways, or even greens for that matter unless the course is brand new, or was completely renovated recently. Superintendents are more concerned with keeping non-grasses out of the rough, like dandelions, thistle, clover, sedges, etc. etc. than trying to keep a monostand of whatever species are considered "desirable" in rough. There is no chemical regime that will kill one grass over the other, unless you are talking about perhaps Poacure, but if you are spraying Poacure in the rough than you are Augusta National.

The course I worked at for many years had mostly bluegrass, but also rye, various fescues, poa annua, poa trivialis, in addition to dandelion, clover, sedges necrotic ring spot, etc etc. And the course was considered fairly elite. Point being, the priority is to have grass in the rough, any grass. Which particular grass is is not of particular concern, as the golfer typically doesn't care as long as it's a fairly consistent height (aka mowed at a reasonable frequency), and is not bare dirt or weeds.

I hate consistent height, maintained rough. IMO the ideal presentation for a course is a single height of cut nice and wide through the green, straight into native. That works best when the grass is a traditional British-type polystand of fescues, browntop bents and a bunch of other things -- where you have a single species on fairways and others in the roughs it is less straightforward. This, I think, is another reason that traditional British-style greenkeeping is best.

It is very important, if you want attractive, tall and waving but open native rough to keep irrigation out of those areas. Irrigate them and they become dense and ballswallowing very quickly.

[JohnVDB]

It’s called “rough” not “smooth”. Rough should be an inconsistent mix of heights, grasses, sand and other annoying conditions that require the player to figure out what is goin to happen when they hit their shot..


I hate the way it has to be consistent at most tour events.  It is one reason why I’m going to enjoy the US Open this week at Pinehurst.

[Kyle Harris]

What is everyone's opinion on primary rough consistency?  Should courses predominatnly only have one type of grass in their rough or is it acceptable for there to be various types of grasses(bluegrass, bent, bermuda, etc)?  Am I the only one who thinks the rough should be consistent or do most golfers not care if they they could be in a different kind of grass every time they are in the rough on the same course?

I have to assume if a course has multiple types of grasses in their rough it's due to the maintenance cost to eradicate the invasive grasses or the super hasn't made it a priority to provide constant rough.  Thoughts?

These words contradict themselves.

[Kyle Harris]

It is highly unlikely that any member of this site plays out of a monostand of rough, or fairways, or even greens for that matter unless the course is brand new, or was completely renovated recently. Superintendents are more concerned with keeping non-grasses out of the rough, like dandelions, thistle, clover, sedges, etc. etc. than trying to keep a monostand of whatever species are considered "desirable" in rough. There is no chemical regime that will kill one grass over the other, unless you are talking about perhaps Poacure, but if you are spraying Poacure in the rough than you are Augusta National.

The course I worked at for many years had mostly bluegrass, but also rye, various fescues, poa annua, poa trivialis, in addition to dandelion, clover, sedges necrotic ring spot, etc etc. And the course was considered fairly elite. Point being, the priority is to have grass in the rough, any grass. Which particular grass is is not of particular concern, as the golfer typically doesn't care as long as it's a fairly consistent height (aka mowed at a reasonable frequency), and is not bare dirt or weeds.

I hate consistent height, maintained rough. IMO the ideal presentation for a course is a single height of cut nice and wide through the green, straight into native. That works best when the grass is a traditional British-type polystand of fescues, browntop bents and a bunch of other things -- where you have a single species on fairways and others in the roughs it is less straightforward. This, I think, is another reason that traditional British-style greenkeeping is best.

It is very important, if you want attractive, tall and waving but open native rough to keep irrigation out of those areas. Irrigate them and they become dense and ballswallowing very quickly.

Consistent height and maintained rough isn’t rough.


It’s fairway mowed at 3 inches (roughly 12 cm).

[Thomas Dai]

Rough consistency. Seems like a strange, rather contradictory phrase. It’s called rough for a reason.
Atb

[Tony Ristola]

I'm in favor of rough inconsistency. The ideal rough is one which you're never sure what type of lie you'll get. Nice one time, somewhat screwed the next.


Too bad they don't have mowers that cut the grass with the irregularity of horses or sheep (but a tad longer)... with clumps of vegatation bursting here there and everywhere. Sandy, stressed, unirrigated rough comes closest to creating these conditions.



Matt Shaffer spoke about the roughs at Merion. The longer stuff. There they seeded all manner of grasses, and he laughed when talking about clover in his roughs... how it's like rope.

[Niall C]

Mark me down also for one who likes inconsistency in the rough. One of the joys about Silloth was you could have natural sandy waste areas, heather, wispy grass or real gunch. It offered real variety.


However we shouldn't be too hard on Bogey, he is after all a man on a mission to break 80.


Niall

[Mike H]

I understand the absurdity of asking the question around consistent rough grasses but really how is this any different than trees on a golf course?  If an architect planted only one type of grass then their intent was for the golf course to play and look a specific way.  If over time the rough was invaded by other types of grasses then this could and likely will impact the playability of the rough and also go against the architects original intent. 


I would assume if the architect felt like patchy rough with bluegrass, rye, fescue, bermuda etc was acceptable they would have planted that on day one of the course. 

[Brian Finn]

For older courses, is there generally a good record of what grasses were used?  I'd be very interested to learn how often specific grass type was detailed for rough on golden age courses. 

[Kalen Braley]

I'd tend to agree with Mike on this one.

While elite players can deal with consistent rough conditions, pretty much every one else is going to struggle with it, whether its well conditioned/maintained or not.

But if we're talking about non-maintained areas (or at least not very often) just off the course, then that is different animal...

[Tommy Williamsen]

I grew up playing courses at Army bases. The superintendent's budgets were relatively small. He focused on fairways, greens, and bunkers. The rough was very inconsistent: patches of grass, bare spots, and weeds. I grew up thinking that was the way rough was supposed to be. Sometimes, you had a good lie, and sometimes, it was dreadful. I hated the rough at Memorial this weekend. It tested the best players monotonously.

[Cal Carlisle]

I understand the absurdity of asking the question around consistent rough grasses but really how is this any different than trees on a golf course?  If an architect planted only one type of grass then their intent was for the golf course to play and look a specific way.  If over time the rough was invaded by other types of grasses then this could and likely will impact the playability of the rough and also go against the architects original intent. 


I would assume if the architect felt like patchy rough with bluegrass, rye, fescue, bermuda etc was acceptable they would have planted that on day one of the course.

I don't think there's an architect out there that designs with the idea the rough is going to stay a monostand of grass. It would be like thinking the greens and fairways were going to stay 100% poa-free. Between fairways being blown off after being mowed, aerification, and general foot and vehicle traffic, a monostand of rough consisting of Kentucky Bluegrass is not going to stay that way forever.

I happen to like a little inconsistency in the rough, if for no other reason than to get a respite from some of the well-watered areas.

[cary lichtenstein]

This weeks tournament, especially yesterday, was both a chipping lesson and an excellent chance to see close-up how rough is unpredictable even for the best players in the world.


I loved watching the tournament from that perspective, as the firmed up greens caused this. Like the US Open, survival of the fittest.

[Rob Marshall]

I understand the absurdity of asking the question around consistent rough grasses but really how is this any different than trees on a golf course?  If an architect planted only one type of grass then their intent was for the golf course to play and look a specific way.  If over time the rough was invaded by other types of grasses then this could and likely will impact the playability of the rough and also go against the architects original intent. 


I would assume if the architect felt like patchy rough with bluegrass, rye, fescue, bermuda etc was acceptable they would have planted that on day one of the course.

I don't think there's an architect out there that designs with the idea the rough is going to stay a monostand of grass. It would be like thinking the greens and fairways were going to stay 100% poa-free. Between fairways being blown off after being mowed, aerification, and general foot and vehicle traffic, a monostand of rough consisting of Kentucky Bluegrass is not going to stay that way forever.

I happen to like a little inconsistency in the rough, if for no other reason than to get a respite from some of the well-watered areas.

I think there is big difference between other grasses slowly invading and planting of a completely difference round on one side of a green and the native rough on the other to the point were there is a hard seam between the two.

[Carl Johnson]

I have no difficulty with rough being rough.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Is there any syntax/notation/formal way to describe rough length vs rough density vs rough rigidity?

I typically see championship courses having short, dense, soft rough, which will grab your club. There is also the short, thin rough of where I grew up in Austin, which will effect spin and lead to flyers, but is not hard to hit from. Then there is long, thin rough like St Andrews, which is usually fine to hit from, but can leave precarious positions where you need to swing hard to actually get through the stuff. There is also some rigid rough that will make your ball sit up when short, and you have to swing through like twigs when it's long, and is often unplayable.

I dunno, could be a place for a classification system if there isn't already.

[Craig Sweet]

Matt, there is a classification for rough...3" 4". Rough is rough...most golf courses are not going to spend a lot of money maintaining rough other than to mow it.

[Scott Warren]

Consistent height and maintained rough isn’t rough.

It’s fairway mowed at 3 inches (roughly 12 cm).

Three inches? You often hear men describe 12cm as eight or nine inches!

For the record, 12cm is about 4.75 inches.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I prefer the first 10m or so of primary rough to be consistent. On a links course, this should be getting rid of the green broad leaves to allow ball findable 12” fescue stalks.


Takes a fair bit of time and money.