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George Pazin

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Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« on: May 30, 2024, 01:55:38 PM »
I post so infrequently these days, I don't really like starting threads. Nevertheless, I didn't see one on this topic, which surprises me.


I don't have a copy of The Confidential Guide (I have purchased and given away 3 copies to friends, don't have one currently), but isn't Lancaster CC one of Tom D's original 31 flavors? I've been watching, and I do like what I see. The players may not, they are getting beat up.


I'm far less experienced than just about anyone on here in terms of courses I've played, so I'm not great at explaining this, but Golden Age courses in the US just look different than modern courses. And I'm biased, so I naturally favor the Golden Agers.


Can the learned explain the differences between the GA courses and modern courses?


Why is LCC defending par well against the women?


What do those who've played it think of the course?


What do you think of what you see, for those watching?


Hope you are all well!


gp
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2024, 05:00:36 PM »
Paying more attention to women’s golf recently, I’ve realized that it’s not just a shorter version of the men’s game. Even elite level women produce much less height and spin on their approach than do elite men, and the consequences seem to get exponentially magnified as greens get firmer.


You could see this watching the last 2 weeks at La Costa, too, comparing the men and women on the same course.


It’s not just that the women’s 150 yard 7 iron is lower and less spinning than the men’s 150 yard 9 iron; it’s also lower and less spinning than the men’s 180 yard 7 iron.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2024, 05:13:23 PM »
That’s an interesting observation, Matt, thanks. And the reference to La Costa is interesting, too; my son goes to FSU, so I watched some of yesterday’s final, and I noted the high bounces on many approach shots.


I find the lessons to be learned re: both design and maintenance to be compelling, given that few if any amateur golfers beyond a handful can approach the characteristics of the average pro’s game.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2024, 05:15:53 PM »
This event and course may get a big hit of media attention the next 24 hours with Charlie Hull channeling John Daly's smoking habit during the practice round/signing autographs and the 10 Nelly Korda took on the par 3 12th (her 3rd hole of the day).  - she finished +10 and will struggle to make the cut in what could have been great PR for the LPGA if she was in contention.


As I just looked, 8 players were below par - course playing at 4.17 stroke average.


Without a little help from nature or the grounds crew winning softening up the greens to be a bit more receptive, the winning score may be +7 like Hale Irwin posted @ Winged Foot in 1974.


Not sure that kind of golf attracts viewing eyeballs.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2024, 06:14:35 PM »
Perhaps some here will like my July 2023 photo album of LCC. The place is special and really a stern test today.


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Lancaster_July2023/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2024, 08:32:27 PM »
Perhaps some here will like my July 2023 photo album of LCC. The place is special and really a stern test today.


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Lancaster_July2023/index.html


Perhaps? PERHAPS? 🙂


Thanks for the link, Joe, your photo tours are always fantastic, hope you’re well.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2024, 10:48:29 PM »
As someone with an interest in the performance and perception of the course, I'll stay away from most of your questions but I can offer some information on the scores relative to par.  At 6500 and change, this may not seem like a big course but it's a long 6500 yards. Slope adjusted the course plays approx 6800 from that distance. The topography is characterized by real elevation change and intersecting slopes to the ball is almost always above or below your feet. typically the green will be receptive to a shot of the opposite shape to that promoted by the lie. 15 is the best example. Reverse camber dogleg. The lie on the approach is materially above the golfer's feet and promotes a right to left shot while the green calls for a cut. Those on the board that have played Lancaster can provide perspective on the elevation changes and slopes.


The river and multiple creeks are magnets for poorly executed or poorly conceived shots. The holes on the front are not particularly long but the misses are costly.



Since 2019, superintendent, Josh Saunders, has done a remarkable job of stressing the turf so that it can withstand minimal water. The result is firm and fast as a rule. Josh is world class. The ball bounces at Lancaster. This has been enhanced by a pre-open agronomy plan developed in partnership with the USGA to ensure texture control, consistency in firmness, drainage and rough health. When this is added to the uneven lies and elevation changes, Lancaster is a course where angles really do matter. Any they matter on every hole if you hope to get the ball close to the day's hole location.


The bunker project completed at the beginning of 2023 has ensured that today's fairway bunkers are consistent with Flynn's original design strategy. In short the bunkers are where good players (aside from elite men, perhaps) place their tee shots. Jim Nagle has worked with the club for 20 years at this point and there has been internal consistency in the green committee which has allowed Jim to work with a client with a consistent vision.


This has been especially important with respect to this Women's Open. Lancaster has no real heritage to speak of as a venue for men's national championships. Rather than be something we are not, we embrace the women's game and the work of Jim and Josh compliments the club's vision as a home for elite women's golf. The course can be stretched to over 7000 yards but it is hardly necessary to achieve what we are seeking to achieve.


Finally, the USGA set up and agronomy teams have been spot on in their presentation of the course. Today the wind changed direction three times with gusts in the mid 20's in the morning. Last night, certain holes, including 12, were shortened to account for the wind. In analyzing the shot data from today, it is apparent that decision making on the recovery shots on 12 led to big numbers. You can't play the ball at a front pin from the back bunkers. A more lateral shot will easily stay on the green and funnel toward the hole.


The greens are fast but not absurd but if you are in the wrong place, you will struggle to stop the ball close given some of the slopes in the greens.


Ultimately, every element for creative championship golf is present this week. Firm and fast surfaces, difficult rough, strategic bunkering, meaningful topography and slopes, wind and great variety in the length of the holes. Scores will be better tomorrow when the wind dies down.


I hope as many of you as possible make it to Lancaster this weekend. If not, watch and chime in.


From my 20 plus years on GCA it seems that this is Women's Open is tracking towards what this board seeks in a championship.


BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2024, 07:30:44 AM »
Excellent post, Rory. Thank you. I was fortunate to play Lancaster a few years ago and absolutely loved it. I took my youngest son out on Wednesday to watch the practice round and the course seemed to be tremendous. It’s great that the weather is cooperating and putting the course on display.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2024, 07:35:58 AM »
Rory,


 In 2016 when another Flynn, Rolling Green, hosted the Women’s Am I told Brad Faxon the one word to know was “ angles”. Glad to see Flynn in the spotlight again.


  I’ll see you later.


Lancaster has the scale necessary for a championship.
AKA Mayday

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2024, 08:04:58 AM »
The 12th was really destroying some scorecards, especially for the morning groups.  After Nelly and a few others went through the hole was average 4.20, which is crazy for a par 3.  After the first round it went down to 3.8, but it had 32 doubles and 13 Others.
Three of the top golfers in the world - Nelly, Lydia Ko and Brooke Henderson shot 80.

Wonder how high the winning score will be - likely something like +5.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2024, 10:12:03 AM »
Fantastic post, Rory, many thanks!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2024, 11:28:15 PM »
A total of Four, that's FOUR, professional golfers are under par halfway through this event with the cut coming at +8.


Thank heaven the RBC is the opposite tour event and Rory, Robert McIntyre Joel Dahmen & the Canadian contingent are playing to keep this one interesting.


The USGA course set up crew must be so proud of the carnage.


A precursor to The Annual attempt at The Defense of Par for the upcoming Men's event  Pinehurst?










Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2024, 07:54:02 AM »
As someone with an interest in the performance and perception of the course, I'll stay away from most of your questions but I can offer some information on the scores relative to par.  At 6500 and change, this may not seem like a big course but it's a long 6500 yards. Slope adjusted the course plays approx 6800 from that distance. The topography is characterized by real elevation change and intersecting slopes to the ball is almost always above or below your feet. typically the green will be receptive to a shot of the opposite shape to that promoted by the lie. 15 is the best example. Reverse camber dogleg. The lie on the approach is materially above the golfer's feet and promotes a right to left shot while the green calls for a cut. Those on the board that have played Lancaster can provide perspective on the elevation changes and slopes.


The river and multiple creeks are magnets for poorly executed or poorly conceived shots. The holes on the front are not particularly long but the misses are costly.



Since 2019, superintendent, Josh Saunders, has done a remarkable job of stressing the turf so that it can withstand minimal water. The result is firm and fast as a rule. Josh is world class. The ball bounces at Lancaster. This has been enhanced by a pre-open agronomy plan developed in partnership with the USGA to ensure texture control, consistency in firmness, drainage and rough health. When this is added to the uneven lies and elevation changes, Lancaster is a course where angles really do matter. Any they matter on every hole if you hope to get the ball close to the day's hole location.


The bunker project completed at the beginning of 2023 has ensured that today's fairway bunkers are consistent with Flynn's original design strategy. In short the bunkers are where good players (aside from elite men, perhaps) place their tee shots. Jim Nagle has worked with the club for 20 years at this point and there has been internal consistency in the green committee which has allowed Jim to work with a client with a consistent vision.


This has been especially important with respect to this Women's Open. Lancaster has no real heritage to speak of as a venue for men's national championships. Rather than be something we are not, we embrace the women's game and the work of Jim and Josh compliments the club's vision as a home for elite women's golf. The course can be stretched to over 7000 yards but it is hardly necessary to achieve what we are seeking to achieve.


Finally, the USGA set up and agronomy teams have been spot on in their presentation of the course. Today the wind changed direction three times with gusts in the mid 20's in the morning. Last night, certain holes, including 12, were shortened to account for the wind. In analyzing the shot data from today, it is apparent that decision making on the recovery shots on 12 led to big numbers. You can't play the ball at a front pin from the back bunkers. A more lateral shot will easily stay on the green and funnel toward the hole.


The greens are fast but not absurd but if you are in the wrong place, you will struggle to stop the ball close given some of the slopes in the greens.


Ultimately, every element for creative championship golf is present this week. Firm and fast surfaces, difficult rough, strategic bunkering, meaningful topography and slopes, wind and great variety in the length of the holes. Scores will be better tomorrow when the wind dies down.


I hope as many of you as possible make it to Lancaster this weekend. If not, watch and chime in.


From my 20 plus years on GCA it seems that this is Women's Open is tracking towards what this board seeks in a championship.


Rory,


Thank you for your lengthy informative post on Lancaster, specifically your comment about how to play the Par 3 #12.


Your perspective brought to mind an experience Tommy Naccarato and I had with the late Neil Regan at Winged Foot where Neil put on a putting clinic born of his many years playing at the club and his intimate knowledge of the greens, including the famous Tenth Hole on the West Course.


Neil dropped down a ball and asked Tommy to have a go at the putt. He missed very badly, even considering the length of the putt. So, I then tried to improve on Tommy’s effort and I didn’t do much better, if at all.


After a couple more failed efforts by Tommy and I, Neil took over and said “let me show you how it’s done”. He proceeded to hit a completely different shape putt that wound up about a foot from the hole.


Tommy and I shook our heads absolutely stunned at what we saw Neil do. It was so different from how we read the putt we couldn’t believe it, whereupon Neil said:


“don’t worry….only about ten percent of the members how how to make that putt”.


So, with that in mind, I’m wondering if that is your point about #12 at Lancaster. Is it simply an example of local knowledge being as, if not more, important than player skill?
Tim Weiman

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2024, 02:56:35 PM »
A total of Four, that's FOUR, professional golfers are under par halfway through this event with the cut coming at +8.


Thank heaven the RBC is the opposite tour event and Rory, Robert McIntyre Joel Dahmen & the Canadian contingent are playing to keep this one interesting.


The USGA course set up crew must be so proud of the carnage.


A precursor to The Annual attempt at The Defense of Par for the upcoming Men's event  Pinehurst?


I get your feeling, but it strikes me as a bit overly harsh. The simple fact that golfers are under par implies to me the problems are the archers, not the arrows. I'd rather see golfers struggle for pars than simply throw darts for birdies. Not because I want to see them suffer, I just want to see them forced to think.


There is nothing I hate more about golf than the only strategy being "What's my yardage?" I greatly prefer forcing players to figure out how to make par. It's analogous to what Tim says about the putt at WF. Tiger's long putt at TPC 20 years ago was thrilling precisely because of how difficult it was. Birdie fests are beyond boring, to me anyway.


As Daryl used to say regularly on here, that's just my opinion, your mileage may vary...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2024, 04:02:39 PM »
As a Flynn course Lancaster is similar in its challenges to my home course, Rolling Green.


I say you make your own trouble.


There aren’t a lot of penal things and the greens slope rather than undulate.


  I think Flynn knew well how to use hills. Mike Cirba gave a talk about Hugh Wilson and made a comment how he placed greens before the top of the hill. That is a very interesting idea which Flynn adopted. It enables him to place the green to create the maximum desired result.


I think this is causing a problem for the players.




Then he likes to run the fairway along the ridge instead of up or down the hill causing uneven lies.


Then he angles the approach usually which entices taking on bunkers rather than just hitting to the center of the green.


I read an X posting by Jenny Shin suggesting that she thought she played well but was 8 over.


Great Flynn courses don’t beat you up.  They get you to take chances that cost you.
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2024, 04:12:01 PM »
I am a big fan of the course and must admit I was kind of surprised when I looked at the scoring yesterday and saw all of the big numbers.  [I was also surprised to see so many Japanese flags on the leader board!]


However, as Rory explained well, it's a course with heavily sloping greens and it's tuned up to championship firmness, plus they caught some wind.  That's not going to be easy for anybody.  Those girls are really good.


In the end, though, the key dimension of scoring is that they are playing a par-70 course which the LPGA almost never plays.  There would be a lot of players under par if it was a par 72, but there are no easy birdie holes out there.  This is no different to Valhalla being a par 72 for the PGA, as opposed to par 70 for the upcoming U.S. Open at Pinehurst.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2024, 04:19:05 PM »
Lancaster, TOC, and  Porthcawl impress with their par fours versus their 3’s and 5’s the most of any courses I have played.
AKA Mayday

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2024, 09:49:53 PM »
[I was also surprised to see so many Japanese flags on the leader board!]



After today's round, 23 of the top 25 are of Asian descent.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2024, 11:25:32 AM »
Very unusual leaderboard as there are only three American women in the top 30.  And so many of the top ranked golfers missed the cut.  Nelly, Rose, Brooke, etc.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2024, 03:08:04 PM »
I think the 4th hole would be better without those evergreens on the right. You are approaching a severely sloped green where getting caught up the hill right or pulling it into the front bunkers are possible.


 The 4th is a nifty hole but you need to encourage people to take on the creek on the right. The tree is an impediment to that.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2024, 03:16:12 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2024, 03:12:55 PM »
I’ve watched every day of the championship and while I’m not a big fan of seeing suffering of this nature on television, I have been transfixed by the design, the routing and the overall look of this golf course.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2024, 03:32:37 PM »
7 is a classic Flynn use of water. He uses it at an angle which again means “ you make your own trouble”. 
AKA Mayday

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2024, 04:08:40 PM »
I’ve watched every day of the championship and while I’m not a big fan of seeing suffering of this nature on television, I have been transfixed by the design, the routing and the overall look of this golf course.


Judge: it is really good. Underrated, IMHO.


I can hardly wait for another Women's US Open there.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2024, 04:53:12 PM »
I’ve watched every day of the championship and while I’m not a big fan of seeing suffering of this nature on television, I have been transfixed by the design, the routing and the overall look of this golf course.


Judge: it is really good. Underrated, IMHO.


I can hardly wait for another Women's US Open there.


Guys-I agree and can’t remember when a course looked as good on television. Flynn’s talent is on full display and being nurtured by a membership who realize how special their golf course is. LCC deserves a permanent spot in the Women’s U.S. Open rotation.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2024, 05:03:32 PM by Tim Martin »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2024, 06:40:57 PM »
What do you think Flynn would say about the speed of the greens?
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....