Lancaster CC and the U S Women's Open

[mike_malone]

Or the speed of the fairways.

[Joe Bausch]

Flynn would have loved it.

[Rory Connaughton]

Tim,


In response to your local knowledge question, the answer is no. Anyone standing in that back left bunker would see that there is no way to stop a ball played directly at a front middle or left hole location. Getting the ball to the hole, requires a deft touch but I see handicap golfers do it all the time. It is not a case of not being able to discern, it is a case of discerning and still making a very bad choice and then compounding it.


As for green speeds and texture, Mike, the course played a tad slower on Sunday. The green speeds all week were consistently ranging from 11'5' to 12'6'. It is difficult to get a reading on some holes but they were very consistent. Rolling was used very judiciously. It was far from a double cut double roll set up.


At the end of the day, it is simply this, you must believe what your eyes are telling you. Yes, the putt breaks 90 degrees. No, you cannot hit into the left side of a right to left slope with a draw and expect to hold a green. Yes, short is often a very smart play . . .


Flynn was at Lancaster between 1919 and his death. In Flynn's era, the fairways were very very wide and fast and pre-irrigation golfers would sling the ball along the fairway slopes for distance during the summer months so, I think it is safe to say that what we saw this weekend was as close to a representation of Flynn's concept on the playability of the course as is possible in the modern era.


Finally, I can't say enough about Shannon Rouilard of the USGA, our superintendent, Josh Saunders and the USGA Agronomy team. They have a great partnership. We would all be fortunate to be as passionate about our jobs as they are. The USGA is to be commended for not patronizing the players with a diluted set up.


Thanks to all who were there and to those who texted me throughout the week. Many of you have had a direct or indirect influence on the way Lancaster is presented and I was delighted that we were able to showcase the kind of architecture that we all love.

[David_Tepper]

"After today's round, 23 of the top 25 are of Asian descent."

A remarkable performance by the Asian players. It looks like 21 of the top 25 on the leaderboard are from Asian countries or of Asian descent. I can't remember the last time the Japanese women had such a strong showing in a major tournament, with 6 of the top 15 players from Japan.

[John Blain]

I’ve watched every day of the championship and while I’m not a big fan of seeing suffering of this nature on television, I have been transfixed by the design, the routing and the overall look of this golf course.

Judge: it is really good. Underrated, IMHO.


I can hardly wait for another Women's US Open there.

It's going to be a bit of a wait. The next open date is 2037.

[Jason Thurman]

I've very much looked forward to this event since playing Lancaster last summer. I absolutely loved the course when I played it, and thought it shined brilliantly this week.


George asks some good questions in the original post here, and they got me thinking about what I think the "signature" qualities of the course are:

• Terrain. Lancaster is a big, broad-shouldered course that features plenty of slopes both abrupt and gradual. Those slopes give the course drama at holes like 3, but maybe more importantly, they continually give it shotmaking interest. 15 might be my least favorite hole there because it's just so awkward to play, but it's hard to deny it as a hole that excellently and stringently tests a player's ability to manage both their tactics and ballstriking. It's a good example of the course's "Golden Age bonafides" - modern courses don't feature many reverse-camber tee shots that give way to a must-fade approach from a hook lie.
• Fiercely tilted greens. Lancaster isn't really about wild internal contours on the greens, but rather, broad slopes that can be easily discerned but difficult to judge and execute against. It requires you to maintain very sharp focus on staying below the hole, and you just can't underjudge the severity of the downhill shots you're inevitably going to face. That all sounds easy enough until you watch Nelly Korda chalk up a 10 on a par 3, or alternatively, try to figure out just how in the hell Yuka Saso pulled off that up-and-down at 17 on Saturday...

It's just a strong and varied test of golf. The course is a joy to wrestle against in casual play, with very fine lines between "in position" and "out of position" throughout. While some courses are better at disguising the ideal positions of play, I think part of what really makes Lancaster work as a fantastic tournament venue is that, to Rory's last post: it doesn't take a huge amount of local knowledge to understand where the ideal positions are, or to recognize when you're out of position - even as a TV viewer, it's pretty easy to see when someone has put themselves in a "Yikes, that's totally screwed" spot. But it does take a HUGE amount of tactical discipline and shotmaking execution to actually find those ideal positions, and to take your medicine (or pull off something heroic, like that aforementioned Saso up/down) when you're out of position.

[mike_malone]

I thought the conditions and playability was peak in every way. I thought that three fairway was a bit quick and am familiar with balls that don’t stop on Flynn designed courses. I wonder if the original turf rolled that fast. But it’s not important.


  I didn’t see the fairway speeds as a problem but do think Flynn would be amazed by today’s speeds.


Lancaster has secured its spot as a permanent part of the women’s rota for sure.

[Mark_Fine]

I think Lancaster is a fantastic golf course and presented an outstanding test for the ladies!   With all due respect, however, Flynn probably watched from upstairs with his jaw wide open at the green speeds.  He would have NEVER envisioned his greens running at those speeds or balls running off the edges as dramatically as they did on for example #6 and #12.  The 12th in particular was set up boarderline at best.  We all know luck is definitely part of the game but I think luck far outweighed skill on that hole.  Picture the 12th at Augusta National but with the tee elevated 40 feet in the air, the approach to the green completely shaved in the front (no saving bunker if you are short), the green pitched severely from back to front toward the water and the back bunker basically death to any balls going over the green long.  That was how #12 played at Lancaster.  It made 12 at Augusta look like a cake walk  Trust me I highly doubt Flynn recognized or loved the set up for that hole.  If you noticed many of the players who doubled or quadrupled or …made huge scores on that hole just smiled as it was basically hit and pray on the tee.  Not much else you could do.  Wonder what Nelly thought? I think one out every three of the best women players in the world hit at least one ball in the water on Thursday.  By the way, Flynn's idea for the drop shot par three hole actually comes from his work at Pine Valley.  The 12th at Lancaster is patterned after the 14th at PV.  But again, the way they had the 12th set up, PV's 14th paled in difficulty. 

But all in all congratulations to the club for hosting a wonderful tournament!!  The course showed well. 

[MCirba]

I was there Friday.   The course played brilliantly, bordering on electric.   It was almost opposite of the standard tour birdie-fest setup and every single shot needed to be carefully considered, determined, and then executed.  I've been fortunate to have played Lancaster several times but seeng players of that caliber having to play strategic, chessboard  golf really opened my eyes to its true greatness.

[mike_malone]

I was there Friday.   The course played brilliantly, bordering on electric.   It was almost opposite of the standard tour birdie-fest setup and every single shot needed to be carefully considered, determined, and then executed.  I've been fortunate to have played Lancaster several times but sering players of that caliber having to play strategic, chessboard  golf really opened my eyes to its true greatness.

Mike,


 I’ve always the proof is in eating the pudding. Lancaster is classic Flynn. Playing it is the way to judge it.

[Kevin Pallier]

I hope as many of you as possible make it to Lancaster this weekend. If not, watch and chime in.

Rory - I bet you and all those associated with LCC are as proud as punch as to the way the course presented and played.


I watched it from Australia and felt the tournament looked even better than it did last time LCC hosted the event. Having been fortunate to see it and Rolling Green in person - you guys are really spoilt in PA. 

Is there a chance it could host a US Amateur?

[Tom_Doak]

 The green speeds all week were consistently ranging from 11'5' to 12'6'. It is difficult to get a reading on some holes but they were very consistent.

Well, no wonder there was such carnage.


What do you normally keep the greens for member play?


How often do the women play on greens that are running 12 feet, with a lot of slope in them?

[Rory Connaughton]

Tom


11 is the standard with modest deviation by a few inches for member play.
At 11' 5' to 12' 5" the pace was quick but not Oakmont by any stretch. Each day certain holes were "protected" meaning not rolled
to account for the most challenging hole locations. I saw brilliant speed control including a sweeping 60 footer by Sophia Popov from front right on 11 to back left on a knob stopping at a few inches from the cup. Think similar putt on 13 at Stonewall. Her start line was back right. and past the hole. She brought it in perfectly off the pull up back middle to approximately 3 o' clock as you look at the hole from the fairway.


The difficulty was due to changing gusty wind on days one and two, a lack of appreciation of the way to manage the false fronts and an initial lack of appreciation that right at the flag was usually a losing proposition. Approach and recovery play was the issue not putting.


Ultimately, the general feedback from the players was that the set up was fair and rewarded thoughtful play. The winning score was right where most of us expected.


Kevin,


Thank you. Last week was quite a bit different from the downpour you played in!
No US Amateurs in our future.  Outside of state level events we have no heritage in elite men's golf and we don't aspire to that.


LCC is an ideal venue for women's championship golf at the amateur and professional level. We have the ability to build history there and this community embraces women's sports like few others so it is a natural fit.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,


In response to your local knowledge question, the answer is no. Anyone standing in that back left bunker would see that there is no way to stop a ball played directly at a front middle or left hole location. Getting the ball to the hole, requires a deft touch but I see handicap golfers do it all the time. It is not a case of not being able to discern, it is a case of discerning and still making a very bad choice and then compounding it.


As for green speeds and texture, Mike, the course played a tad slower on Sunday. The green speeds all week were consistently ranging from 11'5' to 12'6'. It is difficult to get a reading on some holes but they were very consistent. Rolling was used very judiciously. It was far from a double cut double roll set up.


At the end of the day, it is simply this, you must believe what your eyes are telling you. Yes, the putt breaks 90 degrees. No, you cannot hit into the left side of a right to left slope with a draw and expect to hold a green. Yes, short is often a very smart play . . .


Flynn was at Lancaster between 1919 and his death. In Flynn's era, the fairways were very very wide and fast and pre-irrigation golfers would sling the ball along the fairway slopes for distance during the summer months so, I think it is safe to say that what we saw this weekend was as close to a representation of Flynn's concept on the playability of the course as is possible in the modern era.


Finally, I can't say enough about Shannon Rouilard of the USGA, our superintendent, Josh Saunders and the USGA Agronomy team. They have a great partnership. We would all be fortunate to be as passionate about our jobs as they are. The USGA is to be commended for not patronizing the players with a diluted set up.


Thanks to all who were there and to those who texted me throughout the week. Many of you have had a direct or indirect influence on the way Lancaster is presented and I was delighted that we were able to showcase the kind of architecture that we all love.

Rory,


I’m still not clear how you think one should play that shot. Of course a deft touch is required, but where should one aim if not directly at the pin?


Tim

[Rory Connaughton]

Tim


  The safe play is lateral. lateral left gives you a chance to get close enough for up and down. Lateral right is bogey but safe.
It is possible to take an in between left line and stop the ball as well but you have to drop the ball as near the bunker as possible.


At our next GCA event, we will go down to 12 after dinner and drinks. $5 per man closest to the hole.
Everyone's touch will be a little better post wine.

[mike_malone]

Tim


  The safe play is lateral. lateral left gives you a chance to get close enough for up and down. Lateral right is bogey but safe.
It is possible to take an in between left line and stop the ball as well but you have to drop the ball as near the bunker as possible.


At our next GCA event, we will go down to 12 after dinner and drinks. $5 per man closest to the hole.
Everyone's touch will be a little better post wine.

This benefits me who hasn’t had wine in nearly 34 years!!!

[BHoover]

Everything I saw about LCC both in person and on television was spectacular and the course setup was very fair yet challenging. Combine a tremendous course with ideal weather conditions and, really, what more can you ask for in a tournament setup?

[Mike Hendren]

I’ve only played Cascades, Shinnecock, and Lehigh but was impressed with Lancaster.  My impression is that Flynn could get as much out of a parcel of land, perhaps more than his contemporaries.  Secondly, his work is generally devoid of gimmicks.  Thankfully.  Thoughts?

[mike_malone]

I’ve only played Cascades, Shinnecock, and Lehigh but was impressed with Lancaster.  My impression is that Flynn could get as much out of a parcel of land, perhaps more than his contemporaries.  Secondly, his work is generally devoid of gimmicks.  Thankfully.  Thoughts?

That’s why I say


You make your own mistakes.




Take the angled water on 7 tee shot. It’s all your fault if you bite off more than you can chew. It’s not like a stupid forced carry. 

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Be careful about those “stupid forced carries”.  There is one of those on #12 and a very very severe one I might add.  Flynn mixed his use of water hazards as you know. 

[mike_malone]

Mike,
Be careful about those “stupid forced carries”.  There is one of those on #12 and a very very severe one I might add.  Flynn mixed his use of water hazards as you know.

5 at Philly Country , 11 and 7 at Lehigh are others for sure. Point well taken. Even Flynn violated his principles.


 I think his green side bunker ideas are tested by 2 at Philly and 3 at Lancaster where there are bunkers all around.