GCAers Assemble! OTM Statue for St Andrews - a call to Action.

[Marty Bonnar]

GCAers. Please consider adding your more than substantial weight to the planning application for a statue to Old Tom in St Andrews. It’s a very simple process which will take only a few minutes.

https://planning.fife.gov.uk/online/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=makeComment&keyVal=SCD6OHHFGE500


I hardly need restate the influence he had on golf and golf architecture to all of you. Roger and the rest of the team will be grateful for every vote.


Vote now - and VOTE OFTEN! 


CHEERS,
F.

[Marty Bonnar]

If folks are having difficulty logging in, here’s another easy method:


1. Write an email to development.central@fife.gov.uk
2. In the subject line have SUPPORT - 24/01059/FULL
3. Include one line saying that you support the application.


Cheers
F

[Niall C]

Evening Bonnar


Do you know, I think I might write in and object. St Andrews is already too much like a golfing Disney World and could probably do without another "attraction". Nothing against the memory of Old Tom, and I'm sure his legacy or whatever is quite secure anyway, but why not just let the auld town be ?


Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

His legacy wasn’t very secure when they tore down his Shop sign. I’d still like to see something for Jamie Anderson, mind you.
Love,
Moi.

[Pierre_C]

I agree with Niall, St. Andrews has become something of a Disney World of golf. A statue of Old Tom Morris will be an amusement attraction with tourist and golfers waiting in line for a 5 sec photo op.


I usually run into Americans who are on a quick golf holiday in Scotland. Most get off the plane and hit the links within a few hours then play 36 holes everyday. There is a mad rush to play as many big name courses as possible, before the trip ends so you can brag to all your buddies. A statue of Old Tom would just be a check box on a golf trip to Scotland. 


I was in St. Andrews for a week earlier this month. I had a few off days, so I just relaxed and didn't play golf. One day I was near the cathedral so I decided to stop by the Morris family's plot and Robertson's gravestone. The grounds of the cathedral were full of tourists, taking selfies and generic photos. As I made by way to the remote side of the grounds, I was the only person near the Morris family plot and Robertson's gravestone.Given all the golfers in St. Andrews in mid May, I expected at least a few golfer at the cathedral. There were none.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Where is the statue to be placed? Hidden away far from the golf I would be in favour. Right beside the courses I concur with the Disney World comment.

[Simon Barrington]

Where is the statue to be placed? Hidden away far from the golf I would be in favour. Right beside the courses I concur with the Disney World comment.

It took only 3 mouse clicks to get to a map of the location.

https://planning.fife.gov.uk/online/files/1772299634A51A1B74B882DF5E8CD4C3/pdf/24_01059_FULL-01_-_LOCATION_PLAN-3774646.pdf

It is prominent behind the Museum with an apt view for OTM through to the left of the R&A Clubhouse over the 18th Green, towards the 18th Fairway and down to the "Goffers Bridge" across the Swilken Burn (now referred to commonly as "Swilcan") and then onwards to the Road Hole Green.

Given the parties involved I am confident it is an appropriate, well-located and (dare I say) classy tribute to a "Giant" of our game and the architecture of where we play.

[Simon Barrington]

GCAers. Please consider adding your more than substantial weight to the planning application for a statue to Old Tom in St Andrews. It’s a very simple process which will take only a few minutes.

https://planning.fife.gov.uk/online/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=makeComment&keyVal=SCD6OHHFGE500

I hardly need restate the influence he had on golf and golf architecture to all of you. Roger and the rest of the team will be grateful for every vote.
Vote now - and VOTE OFTEN! 
CHEERS,
F.

Done!

[Marty Bonnar]

Well done - and damn the Troglodytes!
 

[Peter Sayegh]

Where is the statue to be placed? Hidden away far from the golf I would be in favour. Right beside the courses I concur with the Disney World comment.

Ally,

Why would you "favour" to banish such a tribute "hidden away far from the golf?"

[Wayne_Kozun]

I was in St. Andrews for a week earlier this month. I had a few off days, so I just relaxed and didn't play golf. One day I was near the cathedral so I decided to stop by the Morris family's plot and Robertson's gravestone. The grounds of the cathedral were full of tourists, taking selfies and generic photos. As I made by way to the remote side of the grounds, I was the only person near the Morris family plot and Robertson's gravestone.[/font][/size]Given all the golfers in St. Andrews in mid May, I expected at least a few golfer at the cathedral. There were none.

I have been to St Andrews 2-3 times. and always go to visit the graves of YTM and OTM.  People generally leave things like tees at YTM's grave.

[Jeff Schley]

I agree with Niall, St. Andrews has become something of a Disney World of golf. A statue of Old Tom Morris will be an amusement attraction with tourist and golfers waiting in line for a 5 sec photo op.


I usually run into Americans who are on a quick golf holiday in Scotland. Most get off the plane and hit the links within a few hours then play 36 holes everyday. There is a mad rush to play as many big name courses as possible, before the trip ends so you can brag to all your buddies. A statue of Old Tom would just be a check box on a golf trip to Scotland. 

.

Pierre do you really think so lowly of the Americans playing golf in Scotland? It appears this board has jumped the shark in referring to Americans traveling to Scotland to play golf.

[Pierre_C]

Jeff,

     First, thank you for the large font. As I've gotten older, my eyes are failing me. I don't think lowly of Americans playing golf in Scotland. I'm actually a naturalized American, I play golf in Scotland, and I like America. I also like ice-cream sandwiches but will complain about them to my wife.

As an American and NYer, I generally feel good about myself when I'm in Scotland. Playing golf or not.

You are welcome to your opinion of my comments. Below you will find my response. Moving forward, this is not the correct forum to continue this discussion. If you feel you need to continue to express your opinion(s) and/or would like to point out any false statement I've made, then you are more than welcome to PM me. 

In terms of Americans playing golf in Scotland. I am indifferent where people play golf or the citizenship of the golfer.  I'm pointing out a fact of golfing in Scotland in the summer. The vast majority of holiday golfers in Scotland are Americans. So statistically, if you are playing any name course in either Scotland you'll likely run into Americans - paired up or in the club house, hotel, restaurants, bars, etc. I have traveled to Scotland or Ireland 17 and 21 times, respectively. Yes, I usually run into Americans. I travel to Asia to play golf, and I usually run into Hong Kongers and mainland Chinese with a few sprinkles of Americans and Aussies. If the statue of OTM was located in Asian, then I would not have references Americans but the people I usually meet.

Example: most recent 4 week trip to Scotland this month.  I'll give you 3 guesses what most of the American golfers I meet have in common. I won't bore you with the details of where and how many Americans; however, I'd be more than happy to provide you a list on request. As a side note, I can't speak as to whether the people I met are lowly or not lowly.

I admit, I don't have an advance degree in information geometry, and my sample size is small. So, my simple country boy opinion is based on my limited experience.

I digress.

My comments are in reference to a statute of OTM in ST. Andrews. If I may say Americans are the dominate golfers in St. Andrews, then I'm making an assumption the vast majority of ppl in line for a photo op of OTM statue are Americans. Example, Pinehurst & Waterville, the statues of Payne Stewart are a common photo op. And yes, most of the golfers are Americans at Waterville during the summer. For most Americans or non-UK citizen, a golfing trip to Scotland is a bucket list item. So most ppl will take a lot of photos of their trip and go home and tell their buddies, co-worker, ex-wives, lover, dog, etc about all the courses they played. So, there is nothing wrong about bragging about playing golf in Scotland. Damn, I (an American) even sent my club pro a photo of me teeing off on TOC last week.

Perhaps you are offended by my comments about Americans playing 36 holes everyday. Do you prefer Americans play more than 36 or less than 36 holes a day? I don't play 36 holes a day. Not my thing, not my style as I've older. I'm indifferent if anyone plays 5, 9, 18, 36 holes a day. My comments are based on my interactions with the people I meet while playing golf in Scotland. The majority of Americans I've engaged are in Scotland for 5-6 days, play a round of golf day they arrive, and usually play 36 holes a day. The people you engage with may do things differently when in Scotland. If so, let's pour one for diversity of thought in the universe.

As for "...jumped the shark... " the reference to Americans is related to tourists taking a photo with OTM statue. I stated I think St. Andrews is Disneyland for golf. That is my opinion, not fact. But I'll take a guess and say the most common tourist in St. Andrews, during peak season, and wanting to take a photo with a OTM statue will likely be an American. If the most common nationality in St. Andrews during peak season are Little Purple People Eaters, then they would be the one's I'd likely encounter and reference.

You are free to ask any caddy/starter from TOC, N. Berwick, Portmarnock, Kingsbarns, Lahinch, Waterville, Prestwick, Muirfield, RCD, etc.. and most will tell you Americans (a lot is relative, so the percentage can be 10, 20, 30, 50, 80) will play golf day of arrival of and likely play 36 holes a day.

I agree with Niall, St. Andrews has become something of a Disney World of golf. A statue of Old Tom Morris will be an amusement attraction with tourist and golfers waiting in line for a 5 sec photo op.


I usually run into Americans who are on a quick golf holiday in Scotland. Most get off the plane and hit the links within a few hours then play 36 holes everyday. There is a mad rush to play as many big name courses as possible, before the trip ends so you can brag to all your buddies. A statue of Old Tom would just be a check box on a golf trip to Scotland. 

.

Pierre do you really think so lowly of the Americans playing golf in Scotland? It appears this board has jumped the shark in referring to Americans traveling to Scotland to play golf.

[Charlie Goerges]

Regardless of what the tourists do, Old Tom is worthy of the honor and that alone is a good enough reason to do it.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Where is the statue to be placed? Hidden away far from the golf I would be in favour. Right beside the courses I concur with the Disney World comment.

Ally,

Why would you "favour" to banish such a tribute "hidden away far from the golf?"

St Andrews has a long history. One major part of that history is golf. I just prefer little reminders of a place’s history to be spread unobtrusively around a town, not shouting out for recognition. I prefer to see the tourism embrace the full spirit of the town.


I also have an aversion to statues placed beside golf courses. There are no old examples, only horrendous modern examples like Nick Faldo at Lough Erne or Arnold Palmer at Tralee.


It’s a minor point.


I do agree with Simon that given the people involved, this one is likely to be done with love and care rather than ostentatiousness.

[Sean_A]

Jeff,

     First, thank you for the large font. As I've gotten older, my eyes are failing me. I don't think lowly of Americans playing golf in Scotland. I'm actually a naturalized American, I play golf in Scotland, and I like America. I also like ice-cream sandwiches but will complain about them to my wife.

As an American and NYer, I generally feel good about myself when I'm in Scotland. Playing golf or not.

You are welcome to your opinion of my comments. Below you will find my response. Moving forward, this is not the correct forum to continue this discussion. If you feel you need to continue to express your opinion(s) and/or would like to point out any false statement I've made, then you are more than welcome to PM me. 

In terms of Americans playing golf in Scotland. I am indifferent where people play golf or the citizenship of the golfer.  I'm pointing out a fact of golfing in Scotland in the summer. The vast majority of holiday golfers in Scotland are Americans. So statistically, if you are playing any name course in either Scotland you'll likely run into Americans - paired up or in the club house, hotel, restaurants, bars, etc. I have traveled to Scotland or Ireland 17 and 21 times, respectively. Yes, I usually run into Americans. I travel to Asia to play golf, and I usually run into Hong Kongers and mainland Chinese with a few sprinkles of Americans and Aussies. If the statue of OTM was located in Asian, then I would not have references Americans but the people I usually meet.

Example: most recent 4 week trip to Scotland this month.  I'll give you 3 guesses what most of the American golfers I meet have in common. I won't bore you with the details of where and how many Americans; however, I'd be more than happy to provide you a list on request. As a side note, I can't speak as to whether the people I met are lowly or not lowly.

I admit, I don't have an advance degree in information geometry, and my sample size is small. So, my simple country boy opinion is based on my limited experience.

I digress.

My comments are in reference to a statute of OTM in ST. Andrews. If I may say Americans are the dominate golfers in St. Andrews, then I'm making an assumption the vast majority of ppl in line for a photo op of OTM statue are Americans. Example, Pinehurst & Waterville, the statues of Payne Stewart are a common photo op. And yes, most of the golfers are Americans at Waterville during the summer. For most Americans or non-UK citizen, a golfing trip to Scotland is a bucket list item. So most ppl will take a lot of photos of their trip and go home and tell their buddies, co-worker, ex-wives, lover, dog, etc about all the courses they played. So, there is nothing wrong about bragging about playing golf in Scotland. Damn, I (an American) even sent my club pro a photo of me teeing off on TOC last week.

Perhaps you are offended by my comments about Americans playing 36 holes everyday. Do you prefer Americans play more than 36 or less than 36 holes a day? I don't play 36 holes a day. Not my thing, not my style as I've older. I'm indifferent if anyone plays 5, 9, 18, 36 holes a day. My comments are based on my interactions with the people I meet while playing golf in Scotland. The majority of Americans I've engaged are in Scotland for 5-6 days, play a round of golf day they arrive, and usually play 36 holes a day. The people you engage with may do things differently when in Scotland. If so, let's pour one for diversity of thought in the universe.

As for "...jumped the shark... " the reference to Americans is related to tourists taking a photo with OTM statue. I stated I think St. Andrews is Disneyland for golf. That is my opinion, not fact. But I'll take a guess and say the most common tourist in St. Andrews, during peak season, and wanting to take a photo with a OTM statue will likely be an American. If the most common nationality in St. Andrews during peak season are Little Purple People Eaters, then they would be the one's I'd likely encounter and reference.

You are free to ask any caddy/starter from TOC, N. Berwick, Portmarnock, Kingsbarns, Lahinch, Waterville, Prestwick, Muirfield, RCD, etc.. and most will tell you Americans (a lot is relative, so the percentage can be 10, 20, 30, 50, 80) will play golf day of arrival of and likely play 36 holes a day.

I agree with Niall, St. Andrews has become something of a Disney World of golf. A statue of Old Tom Morris will be an amusement attraction with tourist and golfers waiting in line for a 5 sec photo op.


I usually run into Americans who are on a quick golf holiday in Scotland. Most get off the plane and hit the links within a few hours then play 36 holes everyday. There is a mad rush to play as many big name courses as possible, before the trip ends so you can brag to all your buddies. A statue of Old Tom would just be a check box on a golf trip to Scotland. 

.

Pierre do you really think so lowly of the Americans playing golf in Scotland? It appears this board has jumped the shark in referring to Americans traveling to Scotland to play golf.

Pierre

Are you ok?

Ciao

[Jeff Schley]

Jeff,

     First, thank you for the large font. As I've gotten older, my eyes are failing me. I don't think lowly of Americans playing golf in Scotland. I'm actually a naturalized American, I play golf in Scotland, and I like America. I also like ice-cream sandwiches but will complain about them to my wife.

As an American and NYer, I generally feel good about myself when I'm in Scotland. Playing golf or not.

You are welcome to your opinion of my comments. Below you will find my response. Moving forward, this is not the correct forum to continue this discussion. If you feel you need to continue to express your opinion(s) and/or would like to point out any false statement I've made, then you are more than welcome to PM me. 

In terms of Americans playing golf in Scotland. I am indifferent where people play golf or the citizenship of the golfer.  I'm pointing out a fact of golfing in Scotland in the summer. The vast majority of holiday golfers in Scotland are Americans. So statistically, if you are playing any name course in either Scotland you'll likely run into Americans - paired up or in the club house, hotel, restaurants, bars, etc. I have traveled to Scotland or Ireland 17 and 21 times, respectively. Yes, I usually run into Americans. I travel to Asia to play golf, and I usually run into Hong Kongers and mainland Chinese with a few sprinkles of Americans and Aussies. If the statue of OTM was located in Asian, then I would not have references Americans but the people I usually meet.

Example: most recent 4 week trip to Scotland this month.  I'll give you 3 guesses what most of the American golfers I meet have in common. I won't bore you with the details of where and how many Americans; however, I'd be more than happy to provide you a list on request. As a side note, I can't speak as to whether the people I met are lowly or not lowly.

I admit, I don't have an advance degree in information geometry, and my sample size is small. So, my simple country boy opinion is based on my limited experience.

I digress.

My comments are in reference to a statute of OTM in ST. Andrews. If I may say Americans are the dominate golfers in St. Andrews, then I'm making an assumption the vast majority of ppl in line for a photo op of OTM statue are Americans. Example, Pinehurst & Waterville, the statues of Payne Stewart are a common photo op. And yes, most of the golfers are Americans at Waterville during the summer. For most Americans or non-UK citizen, a golfing trip to Scotland is a bucket list item. So most ppl will take a lot of photos of their trip and go home and tell their buddies, co-worker, ex-wives, lover, dog, etc about all the courses they played. So, there is nothing wrong about bragging about playing golf in Scotland. Damn, I (an American) even sent my club pro a photo of me teeing off on TOC last week.

Perhaps you are offended by my comments about Americans playing 36 holes everyday. Do you prefer Americans play more than 36 or less than 36 holes a day? I don't play 36 holes a day. Not my thing, not my style as I've older. I'm indifferent if anyone plays 5, 9, 18, 36 holes a day. My comments are based on my interactions with the people I meet while playing golf in Scotland. The majority of Americans I've engaged are in Scotland for 5-6 days, play a round of golf day they arrive, and usually play 36 holes a day. The people you engage with may do things differently when in Scotland. If so, let's pour one for diversity of thought in the universe.

As for "...jumped the shark... " the reference to Americans is related to tourists taking a photo with OTM statue. I stated I think St. Andrews is Disneyland for golf. That is my opinion, not fact. But I'll take a guess and say the most common tourist in St. Andrews, during peak season, and wanting to take a photo with a OTM statue will likely be an American. If the most common nationality in St. Andrews during peak season are Little Purple People Eaters, then they would be the one's I'd likely encounter and reference.

You are free to ask any caddy/starter from TOC, N. Berwick, Portmarnock, Kingsbarns, Lahinch, Waterville, Prestwick, Muirfield, RCD, etc.. and most will tell you Americans (a lot is relative, so the percentage can be 10, 20, 30, 50, 80) will play golf day of arrival of and likely play 36 holes a day.

I agree with Niall, St. Andrews has become something of a Disney World of golf. A statue of Old Tom Morris will be an amusement attraction with tourist and golfers waiting in line for a 5 sec photo op.


I usually run into Americans who are on a quick golf holiday in Scotland. Most get off the plane and hit the links within a few hours then play 36 holes everyday. There is a mad rush to play as many big name courses as possible, before the trip ends so you can brag to all your buddies. A statue of Old Tom would just be a check box on a golf trip to Scotland. 

.

Pierre do you really think so lowly of the Americans playing golf in Scotland? It appears this board has jumped the shark in referring to Americans traveling to Scotland to play golf.

Woah, PM sent, don't think much of this is relevant. Simple Cliff's Notes version is it will be around using, "most" and motivation is "brag to their buddies". Disagree. 

[Stewart Abramson]

What's so terrible about a statue offering a 5 second photo op? This one gets photographed a lot and has never been a problem IMHO







Rosapenna Old Tom Morris #9 - view of Old Tom statue

[Niall C]

Regardless of what the tourists do, Old Tom is worthy of the honor and that alone is a good enough reason to do it.

Charlie


I agree, Old Tom is worthy of being honoured and indeed he already is. The last hole on the Old Course, forming perhaps the most iconic golfing scene anywhere and on probably the most revered course in the world, is named after him. In comparison a statue, no matter how good it is, up the back of the museum is hardly going to add any lustre to his reputation.


However Old Tom's standing and recognition of that wasn't really my point. St Andrew's is so much more than golf. It has a rich history and is still a lively thriving town. I imagine in comparison golf only type resorts are fairly sterile. Yes, it's only a statue, but you've got to take a stand somewhere.


Niall

[Pierre_C]

Sean,


   No, I haven't slept much lately. I'm very concern about the safety of the people building golf courses if worms had machine guns. Hahaha...

Pierre

Are you ok?

Ciao

[Peter Sayegh]

Where is the statue to be placed? Hidden away far from the golf I would be in favour. Right beside the courses I concur with the Disney World comment.

Ally,

Why would you "favour" to banish such a tribute "hidden away far from the golf?"

St Andrews has a long history. One major part of that history is golf. I just prefer little reminders of a place’s history to be spread unobtrusively around a town, not shouting out for recognition. I prefer to see the tourism embrace the full spirit of the town.


I also have an aversion to statues placed beside golf courses.


It’s a minor point.


I do agree with Simon that given the people involved, this one is likely to be done with love and care rather than ostentatiousness.

Ally, thanks for the response.

I think any statue of OTM at St. Andrews should overlook the grounds he trod, created, and loved.

I'm in favor of any plan to place it in the closest proximity of TOC.

Maybe all the bucket listers will learn about and appreciate his contribution after their round.

[Charlie Goerges]

Regardless of what the tourists do, Old Tom is worthy of the honor and that alone is a good enough reason to do it.

Charlie


I agree, Old Tom is worthy of being honoured and indeed he already is. The last hole on the Old Course, forming perhaps the most iconic golfing scene anywhere and on probably the most revered course in the world, is named after him. In comparison a statue, no matter how good it is, up the back of the museum is hardly going to add any lustre to his reputation.


However Old Tom's standing and recognition of that wasn't really my point. St Andrew's is so much more than golf. It has a rich history and is still a lively thriving town. I imagine in comparison golf only type resorts are fairly sterile. Yes, it's only a statue, but you've got to take a stand somewhere.


Niall

I understand. It's a balancing act on what to do in places like this. Certainly his reputation is secure without a statue, but it feels appropriate to me that there is one.

[Pete_Pittock]

My perverse though was that his statue should be placed near the top of stairs just south of the R&A clubhouse

[mike_beene]

People photo op the Lincoln Memorial , but they learn and perhaps appreciate Lincoln. Old Tom Morris and Lincoln are both worth remembering. Most people won’t go out of their way to learn. So making it easier is a good way to educate, remember, and appreciate.

[Simon Barrington]

FYI - Permission has just been approved...

"Our Ref: 24/01059/FULL
Date 28th June 2024

"Dear Sir/Madam
Application No: 24/01059/FULL
Proposal: Erection of bronze sculpture and formation of plinth and associated access path
Address: Bow Butts The Scores St Andrews Fife

I refer to your correspondence in relation to the planning application detailed above.

I can now advise that Fife Council has approved permission. The decision notice
can be viewed online at http://planning.fife.gov.uk/online.