Trees and Bunkers

[Rob Marshall]

Played a course today that just planted two new palm trees, probably 25 yards in front of a fairway bunker that is on the corner of a short dogleg. Why in the world would anyone plant trees in front of a bunker?

[Doug Bolls]

Maybe they're planning to remove the bunker and use the trees to protect the corner?

[Rob Marshall]

Maybe they're planning to remove the bunker and use the trees to protect the corner?

Asked that question and was told no, bunker is not coming out. That was the only logical reason I could come up with...

[Matt Schoolfield]

I'm going to try and be as generous as I can here, even though I pretty much agree it makes no sense.

A bunker is a ground hazard. A known carry distance can negate it's threat.

A tree is an aerial hazard. If it cannot be reasonably carried, players hitting at all distances still must be wary of it, but it can be overcome with shot shaping.

Thus if the club's longest players have effectively overcome the bunker, perhaps the tree adds a bit of risk to the carry, while still leaving it as a possibility with shot shape? That's my best guess.

[Garland Bayley]

Maybe they're planning to remove the bunker and use the trees to protect the corner?

Asked that question and was told no, bunker is not coming out. That was the only logical reason I could come up with...

Green committees are logical?

Green committee members are most interested in what benefits them.

[Rob Marshall]

I'm going to try and be as generous as I can here, even though I pretty much agree it makes no sense.

A bunker is a ground hazard. A known carry distance can negate it's threat.

A tree is an aerial hazard. If it cannot be reasonably carried, players hitting at all distances still must be wary of it, but it can be overcome with shot shaping.

Thus if the club's longest players have effectively overcome the bunker, perhaps the tree adds a bit of risk to the carry, while still leaving it as a possibility with shot shape? That's my best guess.

Matt,
The placement was such that if you carry the palm trees, your ball is going to carry the bunker. There really isn't a huge advantage to carrying the bunker since there are some palms on the other side of the bunker. You could be in the bunker and have to hit it over or around another palm. That is why I asked if the plan was to take the bunker out. It's a nice layout, just don't get planting trees in front of or on the other side of a bunker.

[Michael Felton]

The 7th at Bethpage Black is like that. There's a bunker to carry off the tee and then trees on the other side of it. If you fan one out to the right side of the bunker and you're in it, you're about as dead as you can be on the course.


All I can think of is that the trees add to the penalty of the bunker. If the bunker is a relatively easy shot without the trees there and the trees make that shot significantly more difficult, then you've effectively increased the "risk" side of the risk/reward equation of whether to carry the bunker or play safe out to the side.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Many call that a "double penalty" where you have to simultaneously hit it high enough to lift it out of a bunker but low enough to keep it under trees for recovery.  Palm trees make that easier than other species.  Most frown on purposely designing that intentionally, but it happens.  I think the idea that they added those because the longest hitters play well over the hazard is correct, and they didn't consider the mere mortals in the bunker.


The counterargument to these situations is that most players aren't going to reach the green from a fw bunker anyway (practically speaking) although in theory, it is the chance that they can that is exciting, so hurting top players was more of a priority to them.  Others might say they would have to deal with trees if that shot was out of the rough, and with bunkers often presenting perfect lies these days, maybe they aren't enough penalty anyway.


All just a guess of course, since I don't know the situation.

[Carl Johnson]

Rob, is it possible for you to ask the powers that be at this club/course to explain exactly why they put in the new trees in light of the presence of the bunker?  Maybe it's as simple as, "We really like trees."  The golf side doesn't come into the picture.

[Kalen Braley]

Is there something on the inside of that dog leg they trying to protect and really want to discourage people to take on?  Perhaps the golf club President's house and pool? 

[Rob Marshall]

Is there something on the inside of that dog leg they trying to protect and really want to discourage people to take on?  Perhaps the golf club President's house and pool? 

Nope, The bunker should just really come out. I asked a board member the bunker isn't coming out and he has no idea why they added the two trees.

[Rob Marshall]

Met the Greens Chair today. Very nice guy. You can tell he cares about the course a lot. Scared me when he said they relied on the renovation architect too much. He loves trees, wants to add a bunch on what I think is a pretty tight Florida course. He thinks it's "wide open". I think that explains it. You were close Kalen.

[Kalen Braley]

Rob,

Interesting follow-up. 

I have seen this at least one other time when they tried to protect something on the corner of a dogleg, when OB and a net was not enough of a deterrent. Cutting the corner made the par 5 reachable and it was too tempting, so they added some fast growing trees and that seemed to do the trick..

[cary lichtenstein]

maybe they are just stupid

[Rob Marshall]

I can't post pictures but if someone can I will email the picture and they can post it if anyone is interested. IMO after looking at it today and playing the hole again the bunker should never have been placed there. It's to far into the dogleg.

[Stewart Abramson]

Here are the photos


 IMG_1879


IMG_1880

[Rob Marshall]

Thanks Stew for posting the pictures.


The hole is short dogleg left. The palm tree with the light markings right of the bunker is about 260 off the tee. If you hit it past that you are in the water. Over the mound to the right also runs down into the water. Taking the shot over the bunker will leave you in typical Florida short rough with a 100 to 75 yard shot into the green if you don't get stymied by the palms on the other side of the bunkers.


I really think the bunker just needs to be moved right or removed all together. Probably the later.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Have been harping on this one for years...has anyone seen the 17th at Cypress Point?


There aren't just trees in front of those fairway bunkers, there is a small forest in the middle of the damn fairway!!


If the Pacific ocean was not on the right side of this hole, it could be deemed as one of the largest architectural attrocities in the nation...;-)


 


The proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxbKKfKSl0w

[SL_Solow]

A course where I belonged as a young legacy member, built in 1903, appointed a new greens chair shortly after I left.  The chair loved trees and disdained architects.  The second hole was a nice downhill par 5 with staggered bunkers flanking the landing area,  When I returned to the course I was shocked to see that the fairway bunker on the left was ENCIRCLED by trees.  Never an explanation.  A later superintendent remedied the problem.  Some folks just like trees.