[Thomas Dai]

In reading another thread these paragraphs by Lyne Morrison caught my attention not only the relevance to female participation in golf but to short hitters in general irrespective of gender, age or physical condition.
While Lyne relates her comments to Australia I'd be interested know to what extent they apply elsewhere.
atb
 
 
 
 
 "Here in Australia, the average female golfer is age 65 and holds a 31 handicap. Most courses for women stretch out for 5300 metres or so - that's 5800 yards! It's often the case that holes can never be reached in regulation, even Par 3's.[/color][/size]This yardage overlooks the influence of course setup on the continued participation of many female players - which, perhaps unsurprisingly, sits at 19%. And, while introductory initiatives are doing well, improved course setup is critical to sustaining female involvement in the long term.Fixed thinking has dictated that change is slow here, so it's pleasing to share that one of my clients recently became the first traditional club in Australia to embrace the construction of professionally designed forward tees across all 18 holes. With females and juniors largely absent from tee sheets and determined to turn things around, they look forward to developing a more diverse and sustainable club environment."[/size]

[Ben Stephens]

In reading another thread these paragraphs by Lyne Morrison caught my attention not only the relevance to female participation in golf but to short hitters in general irrespective of gender, age or physical condition.
While Lyne relates her comments to Australia I'd be interested know to what extent they apply elsewhere.
atb
 
 
 
 
 "Here in Australia, the average female golfer is age 65 and holds a 31 handicap. Most courses for women stretch out for 5300 metres or so - that's 5800 yards! It's often the case that holes can never be reached in regulation, even Par 3's.This yardage overlooks the influence of course setup on the continued participation of many female players - which, perhaps unsurprisingly, sits at 19%. And, while introductory initiatives are doing well, improved course setup is critical to sustaining female involvement in the long term.Fixed thinking has dictated that change is slow here, so it's pleasing to share that one of my clients recently became the first traditional club in Australia to embrace the construction of professionally designed forward tees across all 18 holes. With females and juniors largely absent from tee sheets and determined to turn things around, they look forward to developing a more diverse and sustainable club environment."

Hi Dai,


There have been a lot of internal discussions about female, short hitters especially older golfers and Golfers with disability who struggle with distance in the EIGCA (European Institute of Golf Course Architects) so watch this space.


Cheers
Ben

[Mark_Fine]

Thomas,
This demographic is playing a huge role in golf and GCA these days.  We have a half dozen active projects ALL of which include adding forward tees and sometimes reorienting features to better accommodate this segment of golfers.  My home club, Lehigh CC, is also adding a whole series of shorter length teeing areas. 


Make the game more fun and interesting for more players.  Nothing wrong with that.  Just do it smartly. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Thomas,


Here in the US, the NGF regularly publishes statistics, and I believe they say women are the largest growing segments in golf.  I believe the new emphasis on shorter tees has played a part in this.  They also say that for the first time, the >35 age group thinks golf is cool and fun now, more than even aging baby boomers.  I think the ripple effect of new forward tees moving all the other tees up for shorter course length is also a factor in that.


Having designed forward tees well under 5K since 2008 or so (and under 4K when allowed to!) I have also collected much anecdotal and statistical feedback that confirms that the shorter courses may be slow to catch on at clubs, but after a year of senior men, women and children moving up, they find that golf is much more fun.


At 69, I have begun that moving forward procession, from 6800, to 6400, to 6000 yards, and I am well on my way to 5400 yards being my favorite tee block.  So, there is that "evidence" that the forward tee movement is taking hold and making golf fun for everyone.  Who doesn't like reaching most greens in regulation?

[Niall C]

I hesitate to ask this in case it leads to fighting old wars, but before building new tees has anyone thought about looking at the nature of the course playing off the existing tees ? In other words have they thought about reducing or taking away the forced carries ? In other words making the (existing) course more playable.


Niall   

[Jeff_Brauer]

I hesitate to ask this in case it leads to fighting old wars, but before building new tees has anyone thought about looking at the nature of the course playing off the existing tees ? In other words have they thought about reducing or taking away the forced carries ? In other words making the (existing) course more playable.


Niall

Niall, examining the existing playability of the course from all tees is or should be standard practice.  As the old saying goes, "if you don't know where you are going, any train will do."


Many years ago, a female golf writer was trying to make a point of how ill considered most forward tees were, which made an impact on me.  We rode around a well known course, and she pointed out how many forward tees were behind a tree, hitting into a slope or fade away slope that wouldn't contain their shots, had no visibility to the hole ahead, etc.  Prior to maybe 2000-2008, there probably was far too little consideration of how courses played for others than strong males.


I can tell you that my mentors (circa my first year in 1977) were already well versed in avoiding forced carries from the forward one or two tees.  As to how to make the existing course more playable, that is also considered, but the forward tee movement has morphed into starting with some general playability/avoidance of impossible shots, to a more math based model, with hole yardages that at least allow the typical forward tee player to reach most, if not all greens in regulation, to make the game more similar to the one longer players are playing, while recognizing that yardage must match the topo to avoid the problems I listed above, sometimes at the expense of reaching a green in regulation.


I see a lot of "there should only be a few tees" posts here, but can say I never agreed.  Golf and citizenship for that matter do require some consideration of sharing space with others who are different from you.  When I hear back tee players complain about looking out over five other tees, I understand the visual they don't like, but I would find it a small price to play, especially if those forward tees led to more rounds and revenues, keeping my cost down.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

As a resident of a 55+ residential community with 3 golf courses ( Pebble Creek) in the West Valley of Phoenix, a few years ago we added Yellow Tees in 2 of our courses. Our West course is 3844y with a 61/92 rating and the East course is 3806y with  a 60.4/93 rating. There was no construction for these Tees as we placed a Yellow painted small square in places usually along the edges of fairways except for the par3 holes. This was done for beginners and others who want to play there. We have a lot of beginners. 

There are other 55+ residential communities with golf courses in the area- The Grand has 4 courses with Orange tees and there was some construction done for those forward tees. I don't have their yardages/ slope/ratings.

Our regular Forward Tees ( Red) are 4688y & 65-7/102 for East   and  4899y & 67.2/113 for West.

[Rory Connaughton]

Niall,


At Lancaster, there are two sets of forward tees at 4500 and 5300 yards.
Forced carries are eliminated in large part with the exception of one hole where it is
unavoidable. We have found that adding these tees is keeping an important segment of
the membership on the golf course.

[Mark_Fine]

Rory,
We are finding that adding shorter tees is not only keeping golfers but adding to the number of players/rounds.  We also suggest rating ALL sets of tees for both male and female. 


Placing markers out as Steve suggested can be a great way to start.  We often do this to test locations to see how members/golfers enjoy playing from there.  It helps establish buyin before building (if necessary) a more formal tee.  Also there are very economical ways to build low profile formal tees so golfers playing from there don’t think they are an after thought.  The last thing I want to see are perched up mounds dotted all over a golf course.  If done smartly, these tees can often be blended into the landscape.

[Padraig Dooley]

Informal interaction with a course isn't promoted enough, the short hitter can always start nearer the hole if they wish but many aren't aware of this.
Formal golf only needs to be played when competing against others, why when learning the game do you need to compete against others?

[Jeff_Brauer]

As a resident of a 55+ residential community with 3 golf courses ( Pebble Creek) in the West Valley of Phoenix, a few years ago we added Yellow Tees in 2 of our courses. Our West course is 3844y with a 61/92 rating and the East course is 3806y with  a 60.4/93 rating. There was no construction for these Tees as we placed a Yellow painted small square in places usually along the edges of fairways except for the par3 holes. This was done for beginners and others who want to play there. We have a lot of beginners. 

There are other 55+ residential communities with golf courses in the area- The Grand has 4 courses with Orange tees and there was some construction done for those forward tees. I don't have their yardages/ slope/ratings.

Our regular Forward Tees ( Red) are 4688y & 65-7/102 for East and  4899y & 67.2/113 for West.

Steve,


I always found a lot of that kind of reaction - these 4000+ tees are for beginners.  They seldom get used without a pretty good publicity push from the members they are meant for, i.e. shorter hitters.  After a while, and after making more pars and birdies on a more consistent basis, using them becomes the adopted norm.


I think the standard recommendation is a course 25-30X the average tee shot distance of those playing the tee.  Even figuring 150-yard tee shots, that would max out at 3,750-4,500 yards for most women and some senior men.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pebble Creek and other residential golf 55+ communities are not the typical private club. Only those residential golf communities allow golf for homeowners to buy a play card and other non paying amenities and do not have to pay an upfront equity or non-equity membership fee . Only homeowners  and their guests are allowed to use the amenities, although golf does allow non-residents via advertising in the summer months and Pickleball now has a yearly membership at Pebble Creek. We do over 150,000 rounds or more for 3 courses.

I doubt that upper echelon private clubs will have or allow Yellow or Orange Tees.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Steve,


I think many have, no?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jeff,
I have tried to show a difference between private and residential golf communities.Before moving to AZ 12 years ago full time and 3 snow birding for 2 or 3 months before moving.I was a member in the 'burbs of Philadelphia at the corporate owned private Commonwealth, a non-equity membership and when I moved, I received my 5 digit membership in full. I've played just about all those east coast private courses as guests or some events, some GCA ,except Pine Valley. I would have played PV but my host died before our date to play there. I have never seen Yellow or Orange tees at any private courses. 
Since I moved to AZ, the only private courses I've played are Desert Forest ,one course at Desert Mountain and Seven Canyons. Again, no Yellow or Orange tees except Pebble Creek, The Grand-formerly Sun City Grand and Sun City Shadow Hills in CA . We now have golfers leaving golf and learning golf or playing golf. I can't imagine Yellow or Orange tees at Commonwealth and other privates that I've played. There are more Red tee players now,with men and women, at PC. 

[MCirba]

4200 yards and positioned to create interest, challenge, and playability.   That's my wife's vote and I concur.

[Ira Fishman]

Mike,


That happens to be the number our club will have after it finishes its new forward tee project. I will be curious if more men will then move up to the existing forward tees (5200) which for shorter hitters like me is more than enough of a challenge on a course with 10 uphill greens.


Ira

[MCirba]

Mike,


That happens to be the number our club will have after it finishes its new forward tee project. I will be curious if more men will then move up to the existing forward tees (5200) which for shorter hitters like me is more than enough of a challenge on a course with 10 uphill greens.


Ira

Ira,


I'm betting they will.   Perception is reality, really. 

[Ken Moum]

Mike,


That happens to be the number our club will have after it finishes its new forward tee project. I will be curious if more men will then move up to the existing forward tees (5200) which for shorter hitters like me is more than enough of a challenge on a course with 10 uphill greens.


Ira

One would hope, but I have had a personally crappy experience over the last year re. forward tees and bitter old men. 


But first, I believe that it MIGHT work that way if the new tees aren't an added "color." IOW, if you move the current forward markers to the new tees and make the former forward tees a new color, say gold (for Sr. men).  Even then you could end up like the county course in Topeka where the women refused to play the "new" red tees, so they got put back to 5000+ and the golds ended up the shortest tees. And men over 70 played them in all comps. They're still those colors, see card below.


Where I play in Mesa, Red Mtn. Ranch, the Pete and Perry Dye built a set of really well thought out forward tees, but sometime in the last 40 years, five of them were basically abandoned because (I've been told) the better female players thought they were too short. Now they've been reopened as purple tees for a red/purple combo set, but almost none of the women will play them.


Worse the LGA won't let anyone play them in competition unless their handicap is 30 or higher.  (This is the same LGA that limits handicaps in their events to 36.)  Both of which has my wife mad as hell, even she's a ~21 index.


Now to my personal experience.  I am a VERY short hitter, CHS with the driver right at 70 mph, but with a much better than average short game, which makes me very sensitive to overall length of a course.  This something I've understood for years.


So a year ago, after one of the group I regularly play with decided to move up to the red tees @ 4800 yards, with the group's agreement (he had polio when he was young and has some severe limitations, but still plays several times a week), I  decided that I'd take the Tee It Forward movement seriously and move up as well.  After all, my 180-yard average is perfect for 4800 yards.


I all went fine for a while, despite an occasional comment.  I honestly thought that me moving up would result in a handful of the other short hitters coming along in short order. FWIW, my index dropped a bit and I even got within 3 shots of shooting my age with a 78.


That was not to be.


When we got back from 2 months in Scotland in October (and me recovering from breaking my left wrist 7 weeks before we left) my index was up several shots, so coming back to a short course, with a healthy wrist my index started to drop. From 22 when I got home, to about 16. Of course, in that run, I was pretty successful in our $10 game.


And the whining commenced. Every time I played someone made a comment, usually about how FAR I hit it.  Well, cripes, I started 50 yards ahead of you on that hole, and now I'm 10 yards in front.  I'm still hitting a longer club into the green than you.  And never mind two holes back when I started 30 in front, and you still out drove me by 20.


I spent WAY too much emotional energy worrying about how I'd respond the next time I played, and it finally came to head when the fellow that organizes the game on Friday sent out rules that Everyone will play from the white tees or further back except the gentleman I mentioned earlier.


The fact that a couple of long hitters with crappy short games played longer tees because they got more strokes was fine, but me moving up and giving up strokes wasn't.


I moved back to a red/white combo, which was pointless, quit playing on Friday so I play one more round a week with my wife, but the comments didn't stop.  So now I'm playing the whites with them twice a week.


They broke me.


Sorry for the long post, but I needed to get this out there.


BTW, playing at 4800 yards on this course, made me better understand what a great job Pete and Perry (or Perry and Pete) did on Red Mtn.  hitting it 180 here brings a whole new world of strategic interest if you're paying attention. There are seven par fours where you have to think hard about your line and/or consider hitting a shorter club to stay out of trouble.


Except for one hole, the forced carries are much, much more reasonable. And if you played the original forward tee, angle change on three of the par threes makes them vastly more playable for a short hitter.


The only thing them missed, is that two of the par fives are 420 and 426, uphill.  Which is a load for short hitting women.


The card:

[Mark_Fine]

Ken,
Nice post.  It is a shame the color of the tees has such negative connotations but sadly it is true.  We always recommend avoiding making the "red" tees the shortest set of tees but at the end of the day it is up to the club/course to decide.


One of my best rounds of golf ever was from the "red" tees at a pretty infamous course in RI called Newport CC.  By the way, the "red" tees at Newport are the back tees 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mark,
I remember playing Verandah about 15 years ago in Fort Myers, FL . There are 2 courses there- Old Orange & Whispering Oak- and both courses use Numbers instead of Colors for their tees. Number 1 is the longest and 6 is the shortest. I think it's great. Here at Pebble Creek many refuse to play Red because "it's not difficult" and it's not just men. Some women "don't want to move up" from White too.

I spoke to an assistant Pro at Verandah and he told me that  it's a growing trend for using Tee Numbers in FL.

[Ira Fishman]

Our course got rid of colors several years ago. We use names that have some association with the history of the course, including one named for the long time Superintendent. People seem to be getting used to using the name versus a color although you still hear back, middle, front referenced.

[Thomas Dai]

A shame to read Ken’s comments above. Regrettably ego and vanity is not unusual in golf and yet tee flexibility is pretty simple to operate especially in these days of the new WHS. I’ve many times successfully played versions like no-walking-back or downwind from a further back tee and into the wind from one located further forward. Good fun and keeps pace of play sensible.
But and this is where resort, pay-n-play, non-members golf differs particularly to play at private members clubs. For at members clubs singles competitions are played with all the competitors playing from the same tee. Hence the positioning of the tees, the distance between them and an appropriate number of teeing areas relative to the age, physical strength, skill level of the participants, ie the membership, is important.
Atb


PS - I like the idea of using red as the very back tee. Should help to eradicate the stigma of the colour red in relation to gender, ego and vanity.

[A.G._Crockett]

Ken, your story is a terrible one; that is a poorly run group, at least IMO.


Anybody with a basic understanding of the handicap system and the built-in adjustments for different tees should have no problem with what you were doing.


I play in three different groups at my club, and all three allow any player to play any tees they wish.  There is never any complaining about the guys that play shorter tees, much less an edict from a commissioner dictating what tees we should play. I think the guys that run all three groups would tell complainers that perhaps they should find a different game, or even start their own game.


Tonight is the beginning of our 9 hole match play league, and we’ll have guys playing everything from the tips to the a hybrid set that’s around 5000 yds. Each player decides in advance of the season what tees they’ll play, and you stay there all summer, but I NEVER hear bitching about tee selection. In fact, any complaining you DO hear is in the other direction, because you might end up giving shots to a young guy who hits it a mile but plays from farther back.

[Tim Martin]

Ken,
Nice post.  It is a shame the color of the tees has such negative connotations but sadly it is true.  We always recommend avoiding making the "red" tees the shortest set of tees but at the end of the day it is up to the club/course to decide.


One of my best rounds of golf ever was from the "red" tees at a pretty infamous course in RI called Newport CC.  By the way, the "red" tees at Newport are the back tees 

Newport is not alone using “red” tees as the back set as both NGLA and Shinnecock also use “red”.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I like clubs that eliminate the "middleman" of colors or names from tees and simply go directly with the 4400 tees, 5200, 6300, etc.  Why not choose something that directly informs the golfer, rather than mess with colors, sports teams' names, etc? 


As to sports teams, if you picked, say Bears and Hawks tees if near Chicago (along with Bulls, Cubs, Sox, and Sky) you would have to decide whether hockey or football is the tougher game to use for back tees.  Sky would intimate that women "should" play there, and you are right back to the name/color dictating too strongly where golfers should play.


As to acceptance by golfers, my experience is that it is slow, but eventually does happen, if the staff doesn't torpedo it (often older guy pros who don't accept change well).  All it takes is a few golfers to have the epiphany that they are having a lot more fun playing a shorter course, and tradition be damned.  Even so, it takes a "flag bearer" at the club and it can be a battle.  And, there are holdouts, who want to play the same tee their friends do for social reasons, which are more important to them than actual golf score and fun.  Who am I to say they are wrong, even if I strongly believe most courses should be shorter.

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