Would the property of Palmetto Golf Club be a good test of routing skills?

[Tim_Weiman]

Yesterday I walked Palmetto Golf Club and came away impressed with the routing of the golf course, including tee and green placement, green to next tee distance, some shared fairways, etc.


I understand the area and holes near the clubhouse might not be considered ideal, but again, overall I think quite a job was done. Here I am talking about the routing, not the work Alister Mackenzie did on greens and bunkers.


Just wondered what people familiar with Palmetto thought. If one was taking a course in golf architecture, would a topo of the property with instructions to route a golf course be a good final exam question?

[Niall C]

Tim


Excuse my ignorance but did MacKenzie do the routing also ?


My experience of MacKenzie over here is that the routing was his weak point. While he was very adept at making the most of any natural features it often came at the expense of safety ie. shared fairways, at least in the modern era.


Niall

[Ben Sims]

Tim,


I actually like the premise a lot. There’s some odd spots out there, particularly in a time before excavators. 6-7-8 and 11-12-13 come to mind as places where the solution isn’t obvious. Clearly we could have a whole conversation around how 15-18 were sort of shoehorned too but that doesn’t really touch the surface of your premise.


What a place, Palmetto.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim


Excuse my ignorance but did MacKenzie do the routing also ?


My experience of MacKenzie over here is that the routing was his weak point. While he was very adept at making the most of any natural features it often came at the expense of safety ie. shared fairways, at least in the modern era.


Niall

My understanding is that the routing was done long before and that Mackenzie only did a couple minor tweaks.

[Tim Martin]

Tim


Excuse my ignorance but did MacKenzie do the routing also ?


My experience of MacKenzie over here is that the routing was his weak point. While he was very adept at making the most of any natural features it often came at the expense of safety ie. shared fairways, at least in the modern era.


Niall

My understanding is that the routing was done long before and that Mackenzie only did a couple minor tweaks.

My understanding is that Herbert Leeds did the routing although I can’t speak to any changes that were made after he was there.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,


I actually like the premise a lot. There’s some odd spots out there, particularly in a time before excavators. 6-7-8 and 11-12-13 come to mind as places where the solution isn’t obvious. Clearly we could have a whole conversation around how 15-18 were sort of shoehorned too but that doesn’t really touch the surface of your premise.


What a place, Palmetto.

Ben,


Niall mentions the issue of safety and I think one can say there are a few places that might not get permitting approval today, though again my understanding is that the routing is not really Mackenzie.


Apparently, Palmetto is a bit like Brookline in that originally only four holes were built, then nine and finally the entire course.


I’m sure both Jeff Warne and Tom Doak know the history and correct any misstatements I’ve made.

[Tommy Williamsen]

It seems that the routing evolved. I love the course, but the last few holes leave me cold. I know we discussed it previously, but I wonder if the routing would work better if number 15 were number one and the course ended on the strong 14th.




)

[jeffwarne]

The Upper clubhouse loop is one of the (many)great charms of Palmetto.


Assuming the clubhouse position remained constant, walking down the hill to what is now 15 tee to start(in the line of fire of what would then be #5 tee shot(Old #1), as well as new #15(Old #1)and having to walk back up the hill after finishing on 18(current 14)

 "would leave me (a lot) cold" er.


I will never understand why courses have to be so formulaic with a "strong" finishing hole.
So many of my favorites overseas end with a gettable short par 4, leaving everyone a chance to end on a high note-with a bonus of doing so with the clubhouse in close proximity.


15 is a really cool hole, once you get to know it-so much local knowledge, and multiple skills/options required.
16 is as "strong" as it gets, 17, again is local knowledge-like 15, confounding to those who don't respect the fallaway green.
18 is right there in front of the clubhouse/putting green and gives the player a chance for redemption.


The two criticisms I hear of 17 and 18 are that 17 green is "unfair" and 18 is "too short/ easy"
I don't accept either premise, but...
Doesn't that balance out?

[Sean_A]

Jeff

Do any members start on 16? You may like the holes, but the awkward transition from 15 to 16 is the weak link of Palmetto.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Jeff

Do any members start on 16? You may like the holes, but the awkward transition from 15 to 16 is the weak link of Palmetto.

Ciao

Sure occasionally if # 1 is backed up and they know it's only 2-3 3 groups.
It is an intriguing starting hole idea-as a long par 3 it would create instant group seperation.
I'm not sure I totally buy that 15-16 is such an awkward transition in that you would have to make that walk anyway if you finished on 15.That does set up an even more exciting finishing hole(now#15), but again, not nearly as close and visible to the clubhouse as 18. I once played in a group where there were two 2's and two 3's on #15.


I enjoy the 15-16 transotion as it gives time for a rest room or beverage stop en route to 16, and is a bit of a community hello opportunity on both 15-16 and 18 green.
Also, you often lose less serious or in a huryy  players later in the day after 15, making it more feasible for an ultra fast late afternoon 18.

[Sean_A]

Jeff

Do any members start on 16? You may like the holes, but the awkward transition from 15 to 16 is the weak link of Palmetto.

Ciao

Sure occasionally if # 1 is backed up and they know it's only 2-3 3 groups.
It is an intriguing starting hole idea-as a long par 3 it would create instant group seperation.
I'm not sure I totally buy that 15-16 is such an awkward transition in that you would have to make that walk anyway if you finished on 15.That does set up an even more exciting finishing hole(now#15), but again, not nearly as close and visible to the clubhouse as 18. I once played in a group where there were two 2's and two 3's on #15.


I enjoy the 15-16 transotion as it gives time for a rest room or beverage stop en route to 16, and is a bit of a community hello opportunity on both 15-16 and 18 green.
Also, you often lose less serious or in a huryy  players later in the day after 15, making it more feasible for an ultra fast late afternoon 18.

I guess we have to agree to disagree. Awkward is awkward so far as I am concerned. That said, I like 16 & 18. Always thought par 3 holes made sense as starters for pacing issues. And let’s face it, 16 is a par 4 for most 😎.

Ciao

[Tommy Williamsen]

The Upper clubhouse loop is one of the (many)great charms of Palmetto.


Assuming the clubhouse position remained constant, walking down the hill to what is now 15 tee to start(in the line of fire of what would then be #5 tee shot(Old #1), as well as new #15(Old #1)and having to walk back up the hill after finishing on 18(current 14)

 "would leave me (a lot) cold" er.

That's the problem with a different routing. Whenever I have played there, however, I just don't look forward to 16-18. I'd like to get them out of the way early.

[Steve_Lovett]

The Upper clubhouse loop is one of the (many)great charms of Palmetto.


Assuming the clubhouse position remained constant, walking down the hill to what is now 15 tee to start(in the line of fire of what would then be #5 tee shot(Old #1), as well as new #15(Old #1)and having to walk back up the hill after finishing on 18(current 14)

 "would leave me (a lot) cold" er.

That's the problem with a different routing. Whenever I have played there, however, I just don't look forward to 16-18. I'd like to get them out of the way early.

I look forward to those holes - each is fun and interesting, in their own right. The trip from 15-16 offers a chance to see friends and get a drink for the last 3.