How would YOU open an Affordable, Worthwhile Course?

[Matt_Cohn]

No range -nets. 

I would think a driving range should be a profit maker, especially if you don’t water it?

Matt,
Do you think players at "an affordable, worthwhile course" want to pay for range practice facilities (be it a surcharge or hidden cost) over just loosening up? A net is good enough for me.


No mention of profit was mentioned in Charlie's original post.

I'll side with his curiousity/and implied hopefullness.

if you want the golf course to be affordable, then side income can be really helpful, right? Decent public driving ranges seem to attract a lot of people, few of whom are there to actually play. Plus you can then make income from lessons, too, which you can’t really do with a net.

[Mike Hendren]

Who said anything about a pro? 

[Matt Schoolfield]

Good thread. I'm very confused about the actual economics involve here. It seems to me that if there are "worthwhile" Scottish (especially nine-hole) courses that can get by with a single greenskeeper and an honesty box, then it shouldn't be too difficult to operate and extremely low-budget course if the land, climate, and clientele are favorable. I know I probably differ strongly from many here on what is acceptable upkeep, but I feel a bit lost here in general.

Perhaps some prominent architect could make an architecturally significant sand green course?

[Ben Hollerbach]

Good thread. I'm very confused about the actual economics involve here. It seems to me that if there are "worthwhile" Scottish (especially nine-hole) courses that can get by with a single greenskeeper and an honesty box, then it shouldn't be too difficult to operate and extremely low-budget course if the land, climate, and clientele are favorable. I know I probably differ strongly from many here on what is acceptable upkeep, but I feel a bit lost here in general.

Perhaps some prominent architect could make an architecturally significant sand green course?

I would say in general the growing conditions around a course in Scotland can drastically reduce its maintenance needs when compared to a course in the states.


It’s either a lot harder to grow good golf turf, or a lot easier for absolutely everything else to grow.

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

I'd tend to agree and am also getting hung up on the use of worthwhile in the OP.  Anything 2 or lower on the DS could be considered crap by most golfers, and perhaps nearly everyone on this board. There are likely thousands of courses in these bottom 3 categories.

But if one lives in a remote area it could very much be "worthwhile" to have a no frills, low budget "crap" 9-holer in town if for no other reason to avoid a 30 mile (or more) drive to the next closest course.

P.S. As for me I've always have a pipe dream of sorts of having my own high quality semi-private place where locals can access it at an affordable rate on the low volume days/times and the membership otherwise.  But I certainly understand it would be a labor of love and likely a subsidized endeavor.

[Charlie Goerges]

I'd tend to agree and am also getting hung up on the use of worthwhile in the OP.

My thought there is that with the breadth and depth of architectural talent now out there, there is no excuse for crap to be built. That said, I also left it to you to determine the meaning of “worthwhile”. So maybe a Doak 2 is worthwhile to you. That is fine.

[Tom_Doak]

I would say in general the growing conditions around a course in Scotland can drastically reduce its maintenance needs when compared to a course in the states.

It’s either a lot harder to grow good golf turf, or a lot easier for absolutely everything else to grow.

I can vouch for this.  While I'm sheepish about exact numbers, let's just say that the maintenance and operations budget for St. Patrick's is less than half what it is for Bandon or CommonGround, so the comparison between a GB & I project and something in the USA is not apples to apples.

[Bernie Bell]

Shade Mountain, Middleburg PA (Ed Ault, 1969)

http://www.shademountaingolf.com/

Affordable - definitely - see price list.
Worthwhile? I've never played it but knew some lifelong members who loved it. Mr. Cirba gives it a "4." Works for me.  But why is Doak scale for traveling golfers even relevant for a neighborhood course? Why doesn't this model work more broadly?

[Charlie Goerges]

Shade Mountain, Middleburg PA (Ed Ault, 1969)

http://www.shademountaingolf.com/

Affordable - definitely - see price list.
Worthwhile? I've never played it but knew some lifelong members who loved it. Mr. Cirba gives it a "4." Works for me.  But why is Doak scale for traveling golfers even relevant for a neighborhood course? Why doesn't this model work more broadly?

It's a good example of an affordable membership. But the question is how it can be done now. RE the Doak score, that isn't part of the original post, merely "worthwhile" according to you. That said, while most of this type of course is probably going to be focused on the local market or neighborhood, the idea is that it should appeal to travelers in the GCA membership as far as quality goes.

[Sean_A]

I would say in general the growing conditions around a course in Scotland can drastically reduce its maintenance needs when compared to a course in the states.

It’s either a lot harder to grow good golf turf, or a lot easier for absolutely everything else to grow.

I can vouch for this.  While I'm sheepish about exact numbers, let's just say that the maintenance and operations budget for St. Patrick's is less than half what it is for Bandon or CommonGround, so the comparison between a GB & I project and something in the USA is not apples to apples.

Tom

Out of curiosity, why isn’t Bandon apples to apples given the goal is to present PAC Dunes for instance in a traditional manner? I admit to being a bit surprised by your comment.

Regarding the question, I wouldn’t aim to open an affordable course. My goal would be to make a healthy profit. I guess there are many ways to do that, but I don’t know anything about golf development. All I can do is create a wish list.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Tom

Out of curiosity, why isn’t Bandon apples to apples given the goal is to present PAC Dunes for instance in a traditional manner? I admit to being a bit surprised by your comment.

Regarding the question, I wouldn’t aim to open an affordable course. My goal would be to make a healthy profit. I guess there are many ways to do that, but I don’t know anything about golf development. All I can do is create a wish list.

Sean:


Reasons maintenance costs more at Bandon Dunes than at St. Patrick's:


1.  It generally doesn't rain at all in Bandon from May into October, so more artificial watering is necessary.  St. Patrick's doesn't have the supply of water to do that even if we wanted to.


2.  Mr. Keiser and his retail golfers like things green, so that means more water and fertilizer.  Not a lot for an American course, but more than for an Irish course.  It's not my place to share the numbers for what Bandon spends to maintain each course, but I believe it's a small fraction of what places like SFGC or Bel Air spend.


3.  Bandon charges more, so expectations are higher.


4.  Bandon also does a lot more play than St. Patrick's, partly because the season is longer, so there is more maintenance required to keep it up:  filling divots and topdressing are big line items.  [St. Patrick's is a 6.5-month operation, because nobody is up there to play it in the winter.] 


5.  The bunker sand blows around in Bandon more than it does at St. Patrick's, because I understood the problem better, so St. Patrick's spends less chasing sand back into the bunkers.

[Niall C]

4.  Bandon also does a lot more play than St. Patrick's, partly because the season is longer, so there is more maintenance required to keep it up:  filling divots and topdressing are big line items.  [St. Patrick's is a 6.5-month operation, because nobody is up there to play it in the winter.] 

Tom


I'm interested in the 6.5 month comment. Assuming you have ongoing costs over the winter period that would be incurred anyway, would it not be worth keeping the course in play, even if mats are in play or play from the rough only ? As someone who enjoys my winter golf I think it's a great shame that more and more public access courses are going down the winter closedown route.


Niall

[Tim Martin]

4.  Bandon also does a lot more play than St. Patrick's, partly because the season is longer, so there is more maintenance required to keep it up:  filling divots and topdressing are big line items.  [St. Patrick's is a 6.5-month operation, because nobody is up there to play it in the winter.] 

Tom


I'm interested in the 6.5 month comment. Assuming you have ongoing costs over the winter period that would be incurred anyway, would it not be worth keeping the course in play, even if mats are in play or play from the rough only ? As someone who enjoys my winter golf I think it's a great shame that more and more public access courses are going down the winter closedown route.


Niall

Niall-I’m a fan of Winter golf also and live in Southern New England. The perception of many that don’t live in the area is that we only have a seven month season when in my experience it’s closer to nine (Mid March through Mid December) in most years and especially of late. Granted it might be mid April through Thanksgiving in the odd year but that’s been a rarity in my recollection. Some public courses close to Long Island Sound in Connecticut as well as others in Massachusetts and Rhode Island near the Atlantic are open all Winter with each having a devoted following. I know that overseas people aren’t planning golf trips to Ireland in the Winter but I’m surprised that St. Patrick’s is billed as only having a six and a half month season so I guess local play wouldn’t bring enough people in to keep it going through the Winter.

[Brian Ross]

We were able to do this recently at Park Mammoth in Kentucky (in my opinion, at least), and while PMGC charges near the upper end of your $100 peak rate during their peak times (summer weekend mornings) it can certainly be played for less during off-peak days and times.

As to how it's possible, there's only one way and TD touched on it in his third point of his very first reply to you, Charlie:

It's only possible when you have a client willing to do it as an act of pure goodwill. For example, is the client willing to pay for the project out of pocket without the likelihood of recouping their full initial investment. That answer is usually no, but not always. Are they also willing to "only" break even and if profitable, reinvest all of that profit back into the facility. Again, unlikely, but not always no.

As to how it was specifically accomplished in this case:

• Purchase a defunct course with decent bones at a bankruptcy auction that is remote but not too remote
• Hire an up-and-comer who is both willing and able to devote themselves to your project
• Keep it simple! Keep the routing concise, move dirt only where you need to, irrigate only where you need to
• Build a very good set of California-style greens
• Minimal bunkers with no liner (or grass-lined, in our case)
• Cart paths at tees and greens only
• Understated but functional clubhouse
• Don't rest on your laurels, continue to evolve both your offerings and your operational processes to respond to the conditions you face after opening

[Charlie Goerges]

We were able to do this recently at Park Mammoth in Kentucky (in my opinion, at least), and while PMGC charges near the upper end of your $100 peak rate during their peak times (summer weekend mornings) it can certainly be played for less during off-peak days and times.

As to how it's possible, there's only one way and TD touched on it in his third point of his very first reply to you, Charlie:

It's only possible when you have a client willing to do it as an act of pure goodwill. For example, is the client willing to pay for the project out of pocket without the likelihood of recouping their full initial investment. That answer is usually no, but not always. Are they also willing to "only" break even and if profitable, reinvest all of that profit back into the facility. Again, unlikely, but not always no.

As to how it was specifically accomplished in this case:

• Purchase a defunct course with decent bones at a bankruptcy auction that is remote but not too remote
• Hire an up-and-comer who is both willing and able to devote themselves to your project
• Keep it simple! Keep the routing concise, move dirt only where you need to, irrigate only where you need to
• Build a very good set of California-style greens
• Minimal bunkers with no liner (or grass-lined, in our case)
• Cart paths at tees and greens only
• Understated but functional clubhouse
• Don't rest on your laurels, continue to evolve both your offerings and your operational processes to respond to the conditions you face after opening

Thanks for this. I like seeing a more granular explanation whenever possible. I'm still hoping to get even more input, because it's important for us in this group to have some hope in this area.

[MClutterbuck]

Tom

Out of curiosity, why isn’t Bandon apples to apples given the goal is to present PAC Dunes for instance in a traditional manner? I admit to being a bit surprised by your comment.

Regarding the question, I wouldn’t aim to open an affordable course. My goal would be to make a healthy profit. I guess there are many ways to do that, but I don’t know anything about golf development. All I can do is create a wish list.

Sean:


Reasons maintenance costs more at Bandon Dunes than at St. Patrick's:


1.  It generally doesn't rain at all in Bandon from May into October, so more artificial watering is necessary.  St. Patrick's doesn't have the supply of water to do that even if we wanted to.


2.  Mr. Keiser and his retail golfers like things green, so that means more water and fertilizer.  Not a lot for an American course, but more than for an Irish course.  It's not my place to share the numbers for what Bandon spends to maintain each course, but I believe it's a small fraction of what places like SFGC or Bel Air spend.


3.  Bandon charges more, so expectations are higher.


4.  Bandon also does a lot more play than St. Patrick's, partly because the season is longer, so there is more maintenance required to keep it up:  filling divots and topdressing are big line items.  [St. Patrick's is a 6.5-month operation, because nobody is up there to play it in the winter.] 


5.  The bunker sand blows around in Bandon more than it does at St. Patrick's, because I understood the problem better, so St. Patrick's spends less chasing sand back into the bunkers.

Thank you Tom, this confirms a lot of the points I made earlier and was compared to a Zucker Brothers Script. Specifically sparce use of water, low play, and good architecture re bunkers, and relatively lower fees resulting in lower expectations. Plus St. Patrick's has little or no cart play, it is fescues, and given regulations in Europe I suspect it is pretty close to organic maintenance.

[Tom_Doak]

4.  Bandon also does a lot more play than St. Patrick's, partly because the season is longer, so there is more maintenance required to keep it up:  filling divots and topdressing are big line items.  [St. Patrick's is a 6.5-month operation, because nobody is up there to play it in the winter.] 

Tom


I'm interested in the 6.5 month comment. Assuming you have ongoing costs over the winter period that would be incurred anyway, would it not be worth keeping the course in play, even if mats are in play or play from the rough only ? As someone who enjoys my winter golf I think it's a great shame that more and more public access courses are going down the winter closedown route.


Niall

Niall-I’m a fan of Winter golf also and live in Southern New England. The perception of many that don’t live in the area is that we only have a seven month season when in my experience it’s closer to nine (Mid March through Mid December) in most years and especially of late. Granted it might be mid April through Thanksgiving in the odd year but that’s been a rarity in my recollection. Some public courses close to Long Island Sound in Connecticut as well as others in Massachusetts and Rhode Island near the Atlantic are open all Winter with each having a devoted following. I know that overseas people aren’t planning golf trips to Ireland in the Winter but I’m surprised that St. Patrick’s is billed as only having a six and a half month season so I guess local play wouldn’t bring enough people in to keep it going through the Winter.



Tim and Niall:


The weather out in Donegal is a bit wilder than most of the U.K., but they certainly have more than 6 1/2 months of playable weather.  It's just that St. Patrick's is built primarily for tourist play, and tourists don't come then.  The season starts on Masters weekend and ends in mid-October.  The Old Tom Morris course is open for the locals all year round, and that is more than sufficient to handle the demand.


By all accounts from greenskeepers throughout Britain & Ireland, there's a feeling that the golf season is shifting later . . . they do their fall aerficiation two or three weeks later now than they used to.  However, visiting golfers have not caught on yet, and it does not help that Portrush and County Down both close their courses to overseas visitors [except if you're playing with a member] on October 1. 


We are going to start to promote some October events to see if we can amp up the fall golf.

[Tom_Doak]

Thank you Tom, this confirms a lot of the points I made earlier and was compared to a Zucker Brothers Script. Specifically sparce use of water, low play, and good architecture re bunkers, and relatively lower fees resulting in lower expectations. Plus St. Patrick's has little or no cart play, it is fescues, and given regulations in Europe I suspect it is pretty close to organic maintenance.

Bandon is also fescue from tee to green, and has little or no cart play, so I didn't highlight those things, but that's what makes Bandon's maintenance budget low in relation to most comparable U.S. courses.

[Brian Ross]

Thanks for this. I like seeing a more granular explanation whenever possible. I'm still hoping to get even more input, because it's important for us in this group to have some hope in this area.

No problem, Charlie. Not sure how hopeful that was, but happy to offer my perspective regardless. I will echo that I believe it would be extremely difficult to build a new course in 2024 (at least in the US) and have it be 1) "worthwhile", 2) affordable, and 3) sustainable without the goodwill requirement I noted previously.

Perhaps Mike Young will see this and chip in. I'd be interested to hear 1) whether he thinks they could build and sustain The Fields today in 2024 and 2) about his new course currently in planning in Vidalia, Georgia (a very rare species: a new municipal course on virgin land).

[Adrian_Stiff]

We were able to do this recently at Park Mammoth in Kentucky (in my opinion, at least), and while PMGC charges near the upper end of your $100 peak rate during their peak times (summer weekend mornings) it can certainly be played for less during off-peak days and times.

As to how it's possible, there's only one way and TD touched on it in his third point of his very first reply to you, Charlie:

It's only possible when you have a client willing to do it as an act of pure goodwill. For example, is the client willing to pay for the project out of pocket without the likelihood of recouping their full initial investment. That answer is usually no, but not always. Are they also willing to "only" break even and if profitable, reinvest all of that profit back into the facility. Again, unlikely, but not always no.

As to how it was specifically accomplished in this case:

• Purchase a defunct course with decent bones at a bankruptcy auction that is remote but not too remote
• Hire an up-and-comer who is both willing and able to devote themselves to your project
• Keep it simple! Keep the routing concise, move dirt only where you need to, irrigate only where you need to
• Build a very good set of California-style greens
• Minimal bunkers with no liner (or grass-lined, in our case)
• Cart paths at tees and greens only
• Understated but functional clubhouse
• Don't rest on your laurels, continue to evolve both your offerings and your operational processes to respond to the conditions you face after opening

This pretty much sums up what to do if you want to survive.

[Craig Sweet]

Sean A.....


I think making a "healthy" profit from golf is a thing of the past.

[Daryl David]

Sean A.....


I think making a "healthy" profit from golf is a thing of the past.

Not sure what a “healthy” profit is. I am certain that there are a few that are operating making a profit. Whether it is healthy, I’m not sure. I think those are doing ok.

[Kalen Braley]

Sean A.....

I think making a "healthy" profit from golf is a thing of the past.

I would think MK's remote resorts are turning "healthy" profits.  Yes they may be out of the way, but once you get them there, they are also dropping $$$$ on the food, lodging, gear, etc. as its much less convenient to leave.

[Tim Martin]

Sean A.....

I think making a "healthy" profit from golf is a thing of the past.

I would think MK's remote resorts are turning "healthy" profits.  Yes they may be out of the way, but once you get them there, they are also dropping $$$$ on the food, lodging, gear, etc. as its much less convenient to leave.

If you have a full tee sheet and can provide every amenity that the player wants/needs onsite then you have a winner. Additionally with the walking only model people are dog tired at the end of the day and are happy to remain on site even if there is a drivable option for food, booze and lodging.

[Sean_A]

Tom

Out of curiosity, why isn’t Bandon apples to apples given the goal is to present PAC Dunes for instance in a traditional manner? I admit to being a bit surprised by your comment.

Regarding the question, I wouldn’t aim to open an affordable course. My goal would be to make a healthy profit. I guess there are many ways to do that, but I don’t know anything about golf development. All I can do is create a wish list.

Sean:


Reasons maintenance costs more at Bandon Dunes than at St. Patrick's:


1.  It generally doesn't rain at all in Bandon from May into October, so more artificial watering is necessary.  St. Patrick's doesn't have the supply of water to do that even if we wanted to.


2.  Mr. Keiser and his retail golfers like things green, so that means more water and fertilizer.  Not a lot for an American course, but more than for an Irish course.  It's not my place to share the numbers for what Bandon spends to maintain each course, but I believe it's a small fraction of what places like SFGC or Bel Air spend.


3.  Bandon charges more, so expectations are higher.


4.  Bandon also does a lot more play than St. Patrick's, partly because the season is longer, so there is more maintenance required to keep it up:  filling divots and topdressing are big line items.  [St. Patrick's is a 6.5-month operation, because nobody is up there to play it in the winter.] 


5.  The bunker sand blows around in Bandon more than it does at St. Patrick's, because I understood the problem better, so St. Patrick's spends less chasing sand back into the bunkers.

Cheers Tom. I didn’t appreciate how little rain Bandon receives for much of the year.

It’s interesting you cite bunker sand retention. Do you think some of these clubs that are moving away from pot bunkers are in for a harsh surprise?

Expectations…seems to me a common reason I hear for folks not rating or thinking St Pat’s is as good as many of the other Irish big guns is lower than expected course conditions. I sense that as more people get into ranking lists that course conditions of GB&I courses is being considered more important by members and visitors.

Ciao