OT-Initiation Fees still going up?

[Wayne_Kozun]

florida is totally different

In what way?  More demand or less?  Anecdotally there are wealthy people moving from NY to Florida, so you would think that would drive demand for private clubs.

[Steve Lapper]

florida is totally different

In what way?  More demand or less?  Anecdotally there are wealthy people moving from NY to Florida, so you would think that would drive demand for private clubs.

Way, way more demand. As I'm sure Cary would support, initiation prices have tripled or quadrupled or more! Undoubtedly, multiple clubs have upgraded (restored, renovated or regrassed) their courses and added pickle ball, high-end gyms and health spas, along with and other amenities. This is especially prevalent in SE and SW Florida golf markets.

[Carl Johnson]

Dues are up 8% at my N.C. club this year (2024).  Our initiation fees may be going up, maybe substantially, to match an assessment.  Some of it may relate to golf course work, but we're considering building a new clubhouse to replace our outdated current one.  It that's approved by the membership, the assessment will go along with it, and the initiation increase would be part of the deal.  Obviously something like this is an unusual occurrence.  It's going to be interesting to see how it works out, likely in the next couple of months.

[Edward Glidewell]

A friend of mine joined the waitlist of a club less than 2 years ago. At that time, the initiation fee was $45k. It's now $80k for an almost 80% increase.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I was a national member of a club. My dues went up to $800 a month, climbing to $1000. I resigned. It was close enough that I went for two days ten times a year. Each time I went It was at least $250 for lodging and food and gas. It just got to be too expensive. The initiation fee more than doubled.

This puts the difference between the US and the UK into stark perspective.


I'm a full member of a UK top 50 (England top 20) links course a 3 hour drive away. I go once a month or so. Dues just went up from £625 to £650.


FOR A YEAR!!!

What's the guest fee?  I would guess over £200?  So one guest foursome brings in more revenue than one regular member's annual dues. 

[Adam Lawrence]

I was a national member of a club. My dues went up to $800 a month, climbing to $1000. I resigned. It was close enough that I went for two days ten times a year. Each time I went It was at least $250 for lodging and food and gas. It just got to be too expensive. The initiation fee more than doubled.

This puts the difference between the US and the UK into stark perspective.


I'm a full member of a UK top 50 (England top 20) links course a 3 hour drive away. I go once a month or so. Dues just went up from £625 to £650.


FOR A YEAR!!!

What's the guest fee?  I would guess over £200?  So one guest foursome brings in more revenue than one regular member's annual dues.

Duncan is talking about Silloth-on-Solway GC. The fee for members’ guests is £25, but I think they are limited as to how many they can introduce. This summer, the fee for visitors, which is what you are talking about (British clubs differentiate sharply between visitors and guests) is £95.


Silloth is flat out the best value in golf.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Yes, I was thinking of this list, which is now a year out of date, which shows most of the top 50 courses above £200  Silloth on Solway is one of only three courses in this top 100 list under £100

[Jeff Schley]

Never heard of Castletown, but not exactly how I want to have my attention caught with an 88% bump!

[David_Tepper]

Castletown, on the Isle of Man:

https://castletowngolflinks.com/

Looks interesting, with plenty of water views.

Anyone played there?

[Jeff Schley]

I guess because I love numbers or lists....here is the average % increase.

• 1-25 = 10.7%
• 26-50 = 11.3%
• 51-75 = 9.2%
• 76-100 = 13.4%
• Total = 11.2%

UK inflation has come down quite a bit supposedly.  In January 2023 it was 10.1% year over year, and in January 2024 it was just 4% year over year.  Fleeced? 

[Simon Barrington]

Castletown, on the Isle of Man:

https://castletowngolflinks.com/

Looks interesting, with plenty of water views.

Anyone played there?

Many years back (c. 1990) I ran a PGA (UK) 4-Ball Team event there, very much under-recognised as not many travel to Isle of Man (apart from to hide/count their tax-free investments!) The hotel was very welcoming.


The course really enjoyable, sporting, and quite the challenge in a stiff wind.
Some great holes and as their website says not many courses can profess OTM, Dr. Mackenzie and Mackenzie-Ross as designers.


Been promising myself a return one-day. Well worth the visit.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Castletown, on the Isle of Man:

https://castletowngolflinks.com/

Looks interesting, with plenty of water views.

Anyone played there?

Many years back (c. 1990) I ran a PGA (UK) 4-Ball Team event there, very much under-recognised as not many travel to Isle of Man (apart from to hide/count their tax-free investments!) The hotel was very welcoming.


The course really enjoyable, sporting, and quite the challenge in a stiff wind.
Some great holes and as their website says not many courses can profess OTM, Dr. Mackenzie and Mackenzie-Ross as designers.


Been promising myself a return one-day. Well worth the visit.

Simon did you play any of the other courses on the Island?  I was hoping there would be a couple of reasonably intersting ones and then play Castletown at leaset twice for a nice weekend break next spring.

[Simon Barrington]

Castletown, on the Isle of Man:

https://castletowngolflinks.com/

Looks interesting, with plenty of water views.

Anyone played there?

Many years back (c. 1990) I ran a PGA (UK) 4-Ball Team event there, very much under-recognised as not many travel to Isle of Man (apart from to hide/count their tax-free investments!) The hotel was very welcoming.

The course really enjoyable, sporting, and quite the challenge in a stiff wind.
Some great holes and as their website says not many courses can profess OTM, Dr. Mackenzie and Mackenzie-Ross as designers.

Been promising myself a return one-day. Well worth the visit.

Simon did you play any of the other courses on the Island?  I was hoping there would be a couple of reasonably intersting ones and then play Castletown at leaset twice for a nice weekend break next spring.

Ramsey & Peel both have Braid involvement and are members of the AOJBC.
I have played neither, as when we ran events we pretty much were on site from dawn 'til dusk.

Ramsey looks to be fun parkland with lots of quirk (winding streams, cop hedging, walls, hawthorn topiary, and lots of kidney shaped pots flanking Braid's bottle-neck greens). There is a course flyover on their website

Peel - Sandy Herd laid out the original 12, and Braid is cited as extending these to 18 possibly post WW1 or in 1929 when he was at Ramsey (the evidence is not entirely cear for either assertion, the Club are running with the Braid linkage as they have some minutes to support that view). The course has opening and closing holes of parkland nature, the rest are moorland/heathland apparently and some good architectural features, some say very Braid-esque indeed.

So certainly a couple of decent supporting acts to the Castletown main event it seems

[Niall C]

I tried to do a bit of digging into the architects of Isle of Man courses as Fernie reputedly had a hand in designing 3 of them. I'd need to check my notes but not sure I managed to prove he'd been to any of them. Neither did I find out too much otherwise. From memory there is about half a dozen clubs, some of which have moved site so without the local knowledge difficult to know who did what.


Niall

[Niall C]

Never heard of Castletown, but not exactly how I want to have my attention caught with an 88% bump!

How often do you look to see what the greenfee used to be when considering playing a course for the first time ? And how do you rate a course anyway, when you don't know it ? You might be lucky and it's in the CG but more often than not you tend to make a bit of a value judgement by the level of greenfee. That's why tour operators have been telling certain clubs to increase their greenfees in order to attract more overseas visitors. I know that sounds bonkers but apparently it works.


Niall

[Niall C]

I guess because I love numbers or lists....here is the average % increase.

• 1-25 = 10.7%
• 26-50 = 11.3%
• 51-75 = 9.2%
• 76-100 = 13.4%
• Total = 11.2%

UK inflation has come down quite a bit supposedly.  In January 2023 it was 10.1% year over year, and in January 2024 it was just 4% year over year.  Fleeced? 

Jeff


If you want to make sense of the increase in greenfees on top UK courses then it might be an interesting exercise to compare the dollar value for the greenfees now to the dollar value back when the exchange rate was nearer 2 dollars to the pound.


Niall

[Wayne_Kozun]

Jeff


If you want to make sense of the increase in greenfees on top UK courses then it might be an interesting exercise to compare the dollar value for the greenfees now to the dollar value back when the exchange rate was nearer 2 dollars to the pound.


Niall

That was a long time ago now - the last time the Pound was around 2 was in 2008 prior to the GFC.  The exchange rate is now 1.26 which is pretty similar to where it has been since the Brexit vote in 2016.  So American visitors in the summer of 2017 would have paid the same exchange rate as they planning for in the summer of 2024.

[Jeff Schley]

I guess because I love numbers or lists....here is the average % increase.

• 1-25 = 10.7%
• 26-50 = 11.3%
• 51-75 = 9.2%
• 76-100 = 13.4%
• Total = 11.2%

UK inflation has come down quite a bit supposedly.  In January 2023 it was 10.1% year over year, and in January 2024 it was just 4% year over year.  Fleeced? 

Jeff


If you want to make sense of the increase in greenfees on top UK courses then it might be an interesting exercise to compare the dollar value for the greenfees now to the dollar value back when the exchange rate was nearer 2 dollars to the pound.


Niall

Niall,
You know is was sarcasm when I said fleeced right?

The numbers are what they are. You can't cherry pick a historical exchange rate that was an all time high in the last 40 years to "make sense".  Since the '08 value of roughly 1.5 or so, it has largely been + or - 15%. However, the last couple years it has been extremely low levels, not seen since the early 80's. Good for travel in theory, I doubt any US travel well heeled enough to make the overseas golf trip to the UK would even notice the outsized increase in golf visitor fees in relation to UK inflation and currency exchanges.
I very much agree, in that the tour operators are probably valuable consultants for non-rota clubs looking to make more in visitor fees. The delta between guest fees and visitor fees has probably never been greater, with no sign of slowing down.

[Mark Chaplin]

I’m no economist but inflation 10.1% and green fee increases averaging 11.2% suggests restraint by clubs in what for many has been a difficult year.


This year’s figure is 6.7% so it will be interesting to see the green fees for 2024.

[Jeff Schley]

I’m no economist but inflation 10.1% and green fee increases averaging 11.2% suggests restraint by clubs in what for many has been a difficult year.


This year’s figure is 6.7% so it will be interesting to see the green fees for 2024.

Mark,
Supply/demand is a bigger factor for visitor fees as we know. But UK inflation numbers were:

• From Jan 2022-Jan2023 it was 10.1%
• For Jan 2023-Jan 2024 it was 4%

My company uses your gov. site for business decisions and calculations, so used it here.  https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices

Have subs for members increased commensurate with inflation, or does the club just increase the visitor fees to subsidize?  I would jack up visitor fees as long as they sell as well, smart business for clubs to do so.

[Niall C]

I guess because I love numbers or lists....here is the average % increase.

• 1-25 = 10.7%
• 26-50 = 11.3%
• 51-75 = 9.2%
• 76-100 = 13.4%
• Total = 11.2%

UK inflation has come down quite a bit supposedly.  In January 2023 it was 10.1% year over year, and in January 2024 it was just 4% year over year.  Fleeced? 

Jeff


If you want to make sense of the increase in greenfees on top UK courses then it might be an interesting exercise to compare the dollar value for the greenfees now to the dollar value back when the exchange rate was nearer 2 dollars to the pound.


Niall

Niall,
You know is was sarcasm when I said fleeced right?

The numbers are what they are. You can't cherry pick a historical exchange rate that was an all time high in the last 40 years to "make sense".  Since the '08 value of roughly 1.5 or so, it has largely been + or - 15%. However, the last couple years it has been extremely low levels, not seen since the early 80's. Good for travel in theory, I doubt any US travel well heeled enough to make the overseas golf trip to the UK would even notice the outsized increase in golf visitor fees in relation to UK inflation and currency exchanges.
I very much agree, in that the tour operators are probably valuable consultants for non-rota clubs looking to make more in visitor fees. The delta between guest fees and visitor fees has probably never been greater, with no sign of slowing down.

Jeff


I wasn't cherry picking anything. The basic point I was making was that the American market is the main driver for the level of greenfees on the top UK courses and I was suggesting that until the last few years greenfees had become cheaper for US visitors in real terms due to the exchange rate and that the explosive increases in the last 2 or 3 years was "the market catching up".


I do agree with you though on the overall cost of any trip being a much more important factor than the cost of the greenfees, even when golf is the main reason for the trip (or perhaps that should be because its the main reason for a trip ?).


Let me say I've not done a number crunch on any of that and only just my perception. If I was going to analyse figures, I think an interesting exercise would be comparing the percentage greenfees over the last 15 to 20 years for the top courses with that of the lower ranked courses not in a touristy area. Again, my perception, is that their is different drivers for the level of greenfees on lower ranked courses and I suspect there would be a marked difference.


Niall 

[Jeff Schley]

I guess because I love numbers or lists....here is the average % increase.

• 1-25 = 10.7%
• 26-50 = 11.3%
• 51-75 = 9.2%
• 76-100 = 13.4%
• Total = 11.2%

UK inflation has come down quite a bit supposedly.  In January 2023 it was 10.1% year over year, and in January 2024 it was just 4% year over year.  Fleeced? 

Jeff


If you want to make sense of the increase in greenfees on top UK courses then it might be an interesting exercise to compare the dollar value for the greenfees now to the dollar value back when the exchange rate was nearer 2 dollars to the pound.


Niall

Niall,
You know is was sarcasm when I said fleeced right?

The numbers are what they are. You can't cherry pick a historical exchange rate that was an all time high in the last 40 years to "make sense".  Since the '08 value of roughly 1.5 or so, it has largely been + or - 15%. However, the last couple years it has been extremely low levels, not seen since the early 80's. Good for travel in theory, I doubt any US travel well heeled enough to make the overseas golf trip to the UK would even notice the outsized increase in golf visitor fees in relation to UK inflation and currency exchanges.
I very much agree, in that the tour operators are probably valuable consultants for non-rota clubs looking to make more in visitor fees. The delta between guest fees and visitor fees has probably never been greater, with no sign of slowing down.

Jeff


I wasn't cherry picking anything. The basic point I was making was that the American market is the main driver for the level of greenfees on the top UK courses and I was suggesting that until the last few years greenfees had become cheaper for US visitors in real terms due to the exchange rate and that the explosive increases in the last 2 or 3 years was "the market catching up".


I do agree with you though on the overall cost of any trip being a much more important factor than the cost of the greenfees, even when golf is the main reason for the trip (or perhaps that should be because its the main reason for a trip ?).


Let me say I've not done a number crunch on any of that and only just my perception. If I was going to analyse figures, I think an interesting exercise would be comparing the percentage greenfees over the last 15 to 20 years for the top courses with that of the lower ranked courses not in a touristy area. Again, my perception, is that their is different drivers for the level of greenfees on lower ranked courses and I suspect there would be a marked difference.


Niall

Well it hasn't been a 2.0 gpd/usd for over 15 years, so it has been "cheap" since 2008, but has gotten more expensive since covid.  Was cheaper moreso from 08-19 where the exchange rate was down and visitor fees hadn't exploded as we have seen the last couple years. If that is what your talking about, then yes that was probably the glory years for taking golf trips. But we have many here that can bring up pre 80's trip where visitor fees were nil almost.

I do agree that as the "hidden gems" have been found and advertised via tours and other means, their pricing has been bumped.  Maybe another good measure is guest fee vs. visitor fee multiplier.  Most are at least 5x and some probably 10x or more.

[cary lichtenstein]

florida is totally different

In what way?  More demand or less?  Anecdotally there are wealthy people moving from NY to Florida, so you would think that would drive demand for private clubs.

$300,000 to $600,000 to $850,000......out of control

[Steve_ Shaffer]

@ Cary
In Miami,  Shell Bay Club, however, $250-500k is a drop in the bucket. It’s buying a burger at McDonald’s compared to an expensive steak as Shell Bay Club in Hallandale Beach, Florida is looking for a $1 million membership fee.

[Mark Chaplin]

Jeff I’m going on what my pension rose by last year and will rise by this year. Good job the Government doesn’t use your figures