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Tommy Williamsen

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"Give me a dozen infinity greens,"
« on: January 21, 2024, 11:57:31 AM »
said Mike Keyser to Rod Whitman at Cabot Links. I suspect he said something like this to most of his architects. There is something to be said for them. They mess with your eyes, and distance looks different than your measuring device says. But a dozen? Seems excessive.


A second question; is there a difference between infinity and skyline greens or are they the same thing?

« Last Edit: January 21, 2024, 07:07:13 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: "Give me a dozen ininity greens,"
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2024, 12:18:31 PM »
A skyline green is a subset of an infinity green (although in theory you can call a green “skyline” even if it is backed by mounding which can’t be seen because of the uphill nature of the hole).


An infinity green purely means there is no mounding at the back and there is significant hidden ground to the next visible land form after the green surface.


A skyline green is self-explanatory. It appears backed by sky, from the tee and usually from a good distance along the hole corridor.


The first course that I saw where you could argue that it might be overdone was Castle Stuart.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: "Give me a dozen ininity greens,"
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2024, 04:48:56 PM »
said Mike Keyser to Rod Whitman at Cabot Links. I suspect he said something like this to most of his architects. There is something to be said for them. They mess with your eyes, and distance looks different than your measuring device says. But a dozen? Seems excessive.





Thankfully he wasn't on that kick when we built Pacific Dunes.  I only noticed after we finished there that every single green is anchored by a dune, either to the side or behind it.  There really isn't anything I would call an infinity green, and it doesn't feel like it needed any.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: "Give me a dozen infinity greens,"
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2024, 11:27:13 PM »
By the way, when I played the Links at Cabot, I did not think there were too many infinity greens.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Give me a dozen infinity greens,"
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2024, 08:40:17 AM »
It seems to me that being prescriptive about the number of infinity greens might potentially be detrimental to the routing. Better to let the architect use them where appropriate.


Niall

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: "Give me a dozen infinity greens,"
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2024, 08:59:41 AM »
In general is there a substantial difference between an infinity green and a push-up green?

"no mounding at the back and there is significant hidden ground to the next visible land form after the green surface." sounds like it could apply to a push-up green as well.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: "Give me a dozen infinity greens,"
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2024, 11:12:16 AM »
By the way, when I played the Links at Cabot, I did not think there were too many infinity greens.
I have played there a fair bit and the ones that you could possibly describe as infinity or skyline would be 4, 8, 9, 11(depending on the approach angle), 14 (although it plays very downhill) and 15.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Give me a dozen infinity greens,"
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2024, 12:56:40 PM »
In general is there a substantial difference between an infinity green and a push-up green?

"no mounding at the back and there is significant hidden ground to the next visible land form after the green surface." sounds like it could apply to a push-up green as well.


Agreed. Except one is a construction methodology and the other is an aesthetic choice.


Besides, my description of an infinity green does need a really significant distance of hidden ground. We all know it’s usually associated with a green hanging off an edge or perhaps backed by sea.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: "Give me a dozen infinity greens,"
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2024, 01:32:28 PM »
What about a downhill hole backed by the sea, like 7 at Pebble or 14 at Cabot Links?

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: "Give me a dozen infinity greens,"
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2024, 01:49:23 PM »
What about a downhill hole backed by the sea, like 7 at Pebble or 14 at Cabot Links?


Only if the last thing you see before the sea is the green surface, not the green surrounds.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: "Give me a dozen infinity greens,"
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2024, 01:58:57 PM »
What about a downhill hole backed by the sea, like 7 at Pebble or 14 at Cabot Links?


Only if the last thing you see before the sea is the green surface, not the green surrounds.
So I believe that would then be a no on Pebble and a yes on Cabot Links.






Wade Whitehead

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Re: "Give me a dozen ininity greens,"
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2024, 03:03:14 PM »
Thankfully he wasn't on that kick when we built Pacific Dunes.  I only noticed after we finished there that every single green is anchored by a dune, either to the side or behind it.  There really isn't anything I would call an infinity green, and it doesn't feel like it needed any.


The only spot at Pacific Dunes where I can even imagine an infinity green (which would also be skyline) is #3.  Tom Doak, did that ever enter your mind?

Sheep Ranch is certainly full of them.

WW

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: "Give me a dozen ininity greens,"
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2024, 04:02:31 PM »

The only spot at Pacific Dunes where I can even imagine an infinity green (which would also be skyline) is #3.  Tom Doak, did that ever enter your mind?

Sheep Ranch is certainly full of them.





That's because the routings are fundamentally different.


At The Sheep Ranch, and on certain holes at Bandon Dunes before it, a number of holes are oriented to play with the ocean as their backdrop.  Mr. Keiser liked these holes because you got a view of the ocean ["it's an ocean hole"] but you never had to worry about hitting a shot over the cliff.


For Pacific Dunes, I wanted to use the cliff edge as a hazard . . . my standard was not how many holes looked at the ocean, but on how many shots the ocean was in play.  You can hit the ball over the edge six times:  twice on 4, once on 10 and 11, and twice on 13.  But I did have the advantage that the inland property was BEAUTIFUL, so people were less bothered by not being right on the edge of the cliff all day.


With regard to your question about the third hole, that green had the two little dunes at the back of it from the time we first saw it.  As we lowered the green some to make the approach less intimidating, the dunes behind got bigger in relation to the green, and felt like more of a backstop.  But we liked the peek between them toward the ocean and #13.  If we'd actually gone to a green with no backstop, I think it would have been too intimidating for the approach, and I don't think Mr. Keiser would have liked that.  And the green was never going to profile against the ocean, since the shot was always going to be uphill.


Note that I am not totally against building an infinity green; I've done it numerous times.  There aren't many that are more dramatic than the 12th hole at Cape Kidnappers, and to a lesser degree, the 15th and 10th.  At the 10th and 12th there, though, the green is backed up to the point that going over may result in real trouble.  Most infinity greens are sheep in wolves' clothing.

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Give me a dozen ininity greens,"
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2024, 05:12:54 PM »

The only spot at Pacific Dunes where I can even imagine an infinity green (which would also be skyline) is #3.  Tom Doak, did that ever enter your mind?

Sheep Ranch is certainly full of them.





That's because the routings are fundamentally different.


At The Sheep Ranch, and on certain holes at Bandon Dunes before it, a number of holes are oriented to play with the ocean as their backdrop.  Mr. Keiser liked these holes because you got a view of the ocean ["it's an ocean hole"] but you never had to worry about hitting a shot over the cliff.


For Pacific Dunes, I wanted to use the cliff edge as a hazard . . . my standard was not how many holes looked at the ocean, but on how many shots the ocean was in play.  You can hit the ball over the edge six times:  twice on 4, once on 10 and 11, and twice on 13.  But I did have the advantage that the inland property was BEAUTIFUL, so people were less bothered by not being right on the edge of the cliff all day.


With regard to your question about the third hole, that green had the two little dunes at the back of it from the time we first saw it.  As we lowered the green some to make the approach less intimidating, the dunes behind got bigger in relation to the green, and felt like more of a backstop.  But we liked the peek between them toward the ocean and #13.  If we'd actually gone to a green with no backstop, I think it would have been too intimidating for the approach, and I don't think Mr. Keiser would have liked that.  And the green was never going to profile against the ocean, since the shot was always going to be uphill.


Note that I am not totally against building an infinity green; I've done it numerous times.  There aren't many that are more dramatic than the 12th hole at Cape Kidnappers, and to a lesser degree, the 15th and 10th.  At the 10th and 12th there, though, the green is backed up to the point that going over may result in real trouble.  Most infinity greens are sheep in wolves' clothing.
As I mentioned in another thread, the walk from 3 green to 4 tee is one of my favorite "reveals" in golf, so I'm definitely not even remotely suggesting that there should have been anything besides those dunes behind the green.

I believe I remember Mr. Coore mentioning that Mr. Keiser and Mr. Friedman specifically asked for multiple infinity greens at Sheep Ranch, which is one reason they ran so many holes (beginning with the first) straight towards the cliffs.  I haven't been to Cape Kidnappers, but that site certainly appears to pull holes towards (and then away from) infinity edges.


WW

PS That peek at #13 from #3 green you mention is an all-time anticipation-builder.  After seeing America's finest par four,, the player has to wait a bit over two hours to hit a shot on it!

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Give me a dozen infinity greens,"
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2024, 04:10:36 PM »
This thread made me count the infinty greens (all skyline greens) at El Desafio. Holes 5, 6, 7, 9, 17 and 18 once you get to the fairway, are all skyline.  There was no request to have skyline greens. It is just a matter of fit.


BTW, it has several skyline tees as well, some interesting views from green to tee... and how do you feel about a Skyline Biarritz?




David Ober

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Re: "Give me a dozen infinity greens,"
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2024, 02:35:04 PM »
Love Love Love Love "infinity" greens, but the amount of "loves" is about the maximum amount I would want on any course.

They really do separate the wheat form the chaff in terms of one's ability (both mental and physical) to execute a golf shot to a back pin -- especially downwind ....