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Thomas Dai

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2024, 03:57:57 PM »
Charlie and Thomas,
Yes drainage drainage drainage.  We all get that.  A soccer pitch has to be graded well to drain water off the edges.  But it would make a pretty blah golf hole - no well placed hazards  :(
Hold on there.
Firstly, I’m not sure all do get drainage.
Secondly, perhaps someone will put me right if I’m incorrect but from what I’ve read and heard Mackenzie made quality golf possible at the essentially flat and boggy Jockey Club site by drastically improving and enhancing what small amount of natural drainage was on the heavy soil site and using the spoil to make to the bunkers and the tees and the greens etc.
Atb

Brett Hochstein

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2024, 04:25:57 PM »
Charlie and Thomas,
Yes drainage drainage drainage.  We all get that.  A soccer pitch has to be graded well to drain water off the edges.  But it would make a pretty blah golf hole - no well placed hazards  :(
Hold on there.
Firstly, I’m not sure all do get drainage.
Secondly, perhaps someone will put me right if I’m incorrect but from what I’ve read and heard Mackenzie made quality golf possible at the essentially flat and boggy Jockey Club site by drastically improving and enhancing what small amount of natural drainage was on the heavy soil site and using the spoil to make to the bunkers and the tees and the greens etc.
Atb




Drainage isn't really a "feature," especially as the spirit of this thread is intended. It's more an essential infrastructure component. For features, I believe we are talking about things that impact play and aesthetics. Drainage, such as a ditch, can also impact those things, but its primary objective is to move water and dry up the surface, not necessary affect play or aesthetics.

"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Brett Hochstein

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2024, 04:37:03 PM »
I agree that greens are very important but I think that there are limits on green design. They always are at the end of the hole. Bunkers can create architectural questions throughout.



I'd contend that good greens can also create architectural questions throughout. A par four green with a strong tilt to the right would encourage a tee shot down the right side so that the approach can work against it. Or you have a hole like the 4th on the Old Course, where your tee shot placement should be dictated by which side of the mound the flag is on.


I currently have a concept drawn up for a hole that is bunkerless, but strategy from the tee will be different day-to-day depending on where the hole is located on the green.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

mike_malone

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2024, 04:46:21 PM »
As Mark Fine pointed out bunker placement can hurt the architecture as well. It’s hard for greens to do that easily.
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2024, 05:45:13 PM »
The desert courses this week provide some bunker placement examples of architectural decisions. Just saw a green side bunker well away from the putting surface. That’s important in the architecture.
AKA Mayday

Mark_Fine

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2024, 06:19:08 PM »

Let’s face it, there are a myriad of factors that determine and/or differentiate what is or isn’t great golf course design.  Mess up on any one of these factors and your course will be subject to a lot of scrutiny. 


I know this thread is about bunker placement. I tried (sorry Mike) to expand it to “hazard” placement in general.  But now the word “hazard” no longer even exists in the rules of golf.  Frankly we have come full circle as the word hazard never existed in the original rules of golf either.  Bunkers were not called “hazards” nor were ditches, or mounds or hollows or ponds or …. They were all just “hazardous situations” a golfer could get themselves into and it was up to them to determine how they would get themselves out.  If your ball ended up in a ditch or a large sand pit, you dealt with it.  If you ended up with a large mound between your ball and the hole, you figured it out the best you could.  You were in a hazardous situation and you just had to deal with it. 


But it was these hazardous situations that made the game exciting.  Despite what Thomas said about Mackenzie finding a flat and boggy site at The Jockey Club and having to sort it out, I can guarantee you that while he was definitely concerned about drainage, he was far more concerned about building something interesting and challenging otherwise it likely wouldn’t remain a golf course for long no matter how good the drainage :)


Early golfers/architects didn’t seek out flat featureless land to play their game.  They went to the links with all their dunes and blowouts and gorse and rumpled ground that made the game interesting and fun.  Early course design was as much an obstacle course as it was anything else.  And the location of those obstacles (mostly in and near the line of play) was what made the game exciting.  Future architects embraced this thought/course layout process and continued it to this day. 

mike_malone

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2024, 06:32:35 PM »
Mark,


You touch on another aspect I wanted to pursue in this exchange. I have felt that the placement of many links bunkers is into some natural rise. While they may be penal versus strategic they are at least natural.
AKA Mayday

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2024, 07:54:26 PM »
If routing and drainage do not count as a “feature”, what are the choices in addition to bunkers and green sites? Seems as if this is a self fulfilling prophecy of a question.


Ira

Kyle Harris

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2024, 09:02:23 PM »
Good bunkers aren’t even in the Top 10.
Bad bunkers on the other hand might be.
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Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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mike_malone

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2024, 09:44:11 PM »
If routing and drainage do not count as a “feature”, what are the choices in addition to bunkers and green sites? Seems as if this is a self fulfilling prophecy of a question.


Ira


Trees, creeks, greens, fairway contouring, tee angles could be some.
AKA Mayday

Craig Sweet

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2024, 10:57:12 PM »
I hardly ever see anyone posting here about the importance of tee placement. Is it not as important as greens, bunkers, water?
We are no longer a country of laws.

mike_malone

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2024, 11:06:52 PM »
I hardly ever see anyone posting here about the importance of tee placement. Is it not as important as greens, bunkers, water?


It’s not as important to me. I kind of wanted to have 4 ideas to make me look smarter.  ;D
AKA Mayday

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2024, 07:54:33 AM »
I think most people have misread or misunderstood the question.


Maybe I have. Surely the response is either yes or no.


Architectural features are either natural or built.


The route is how you traverse the natural features. Soil quality is not and architectural feature.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Jeff Schley

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2024, 08:04:22 AM »
Didnt’ read answers, but greens are paramount. Not sure if it was discussed or eliminated to choose. But #2 would be a plethora of artificial and grand waterfalls.  ;D
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Mark_Fine

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2024, 09:16:23 AM »
Jeff,
I hear you about greens being important.  When do you think their importance changed and became so significant because early on they really weren’t important at all.  It was about the journey to get to the hole and not about the putting. 


When Old Tom Morris changed the conditions around the hole, that was likely the start of putting surfaces becoming more important. 

Mike_Trenham

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2024, 10:21:06 AM »


 Routing would not be a consideration in this discussion since it’s not a feature in my view.


  My bias is that I believe bunkers are often badly placed particularly when they are built up.




Agree on bunkers being forced on golf holes is an issue.  Plus now I see bunkers added for today’s longest hitters are often not in natural places and built up so that they are visible and also need to be deep as it’s just driver wedge anymore so the default is they must be deep to be a hazzard.  And when done poorly are jarring when you are there but they do look nice in photos. 
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2024, 11:24:28 AM »
If routing and drainage do not count as a “feature”, what are the choices in addition to bunkers and green sites? Seems as if this is a self fulfilling prophecy of a question.


Ira


Trees, creeks, greens, fairway contouring, tee angles could be some.


Depending upon the site and the Routing, any of these could be the most important feature. Of my five favorite courses (Lahinch, CPC, North Berwick, PH2, and Somerset Hills), I could argue that they would be great without any bunkers. But among some of my next favorites, bunkers are important on many of the holes. So it depends. So my answer would be no. I agree with those who say greens, especially if you include the green surrounds.


Ira

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2024, 11:34:32 AM »
Because they are usually high contrast and high visibility features, their importance tends to be over rated.  Just MHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Is bunker placement the number one architectural feature?
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2024, 11:58:56 AM »
As Mark Fine pointed out bunker placement can hurt the architecture as well. It’s hard for greens to do that easily.


I guess that is why bunker placement is so important.
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