Sharpening your gca senses on the second level courses.

[mike_malone]

Ira Fishman on the Yank Awards topic chose Mid Pines and Elie as his favorite replays of the year. I agreed with his love for Mid Pines. But on the same visit that I played Elie I also played Dunbar which I preferred by a smidge.


  It gets me to think that maybe my course evaluations can be better brought into focus by comparing these second level courses versus how I compare Oakmont to Merion.


The great courses overpower my senses and reduce my analytical skills. When I think of Mid Pines, Pine Needles, and Southern Pines or Elie, Leven, and Dunbar I can better discern what matters to me.


Is it routing, green complexes, fairway bunkering, or use of the land that I use to decide which course I prefer?


Gca amateurs should constantly work to enhance their critical skills to enjoy the game of evaluation.

[PCCraig]

Since when is Mid-Pines a "2nd level" course? I can think of a number of cities in the country that if you dropped it there, it would be the best course for 250+ miles?

[Cal Seifert]

Since when is Mid-Pines a "2nd level" course? I can think of a number of cities in the country that if you dropped it there, it would be the best course for 250+ miles?

I agree, although most consider it a second level course when compared to no. 2

[Ben Sims]

Mike,


I’ve have one round each on a few of the tier one luminaries. They were as good as advertised. But I struggle to talk about them intelligently. The *experience* is etched into my memory.


Like you say, I can much more easily talk about why I like or don’t like that “next tier” of courses. Perhaps it’s access based. I guess if I was a member at National, I could discuss it better. I do frequent one course I’d consider a tier one and I can discuss it rather easily.


The question really comes down to, can you speak confidently upon seeing a course once? I’m sure some can. I used to think I could but now I’m not so sure.


PS: Worth an another thread completely, this is one of the main reasons why I evangelize two things for friends traveling to the great links in GB&I. 1) join a club 2) go to TOC on a Sunday and spend as much time as you can walking the holes.

[Sean_A]

Ira Fishman on the Yank Awards topic chose Mid Pines and Elie as his favorite replays of the year. I agreed with his love for Mid Pines. But on the same visit that I played Elie I also played Dunbar which I preferred by a smidge.


  It gets me to think that maybe my course evaluations can be better brought into focus by comparing these second level courses versus how I compare Oakmont to Merion.


The great courses overpower my senses and reduce my analytical skills. When I think of Mid Pines, Pine Needles, and Southern Pines or Elie, Leven, and Dunbar I can better discern what matters to me.


Is it routing, green complexes, fairway bunkering, or use of the land that I use to decide which course I prefer?


Gca amateurs should constantly work to enhance their critical skills to enjoy the game of evaluation.

While I don’t think the routing is complicated, I admire Dunbar’s. There really isn’t space for 18 holes which is part of the charm…and at the same time an annoyance when busy.

I am one that believes Elie is firmly 1st tier (promoted by me ).

Happy Boxing Day

[Steve Lang]

...

The question really comes down to, can you speak confidently upon seeing a course once? I’m sure some can. I used to think I could but now I’m not so sure.


PS: Worth an another thread completely, this is one of the main reasons why I evangelize two things for friends traveling to the great links in GB&I. 1) join a club 2) go to TOC on a Sunday and spend as much time as you can walking the holes.

Ben, good points, wholly agree; when Ms Sheila & I took in TOC back in 96, we adventured across the firth on Sunday from Edinburgh to get used to driving on the wrong side of the road and see the route, strolled the town, looked in the R&A's windows, checked the topo map in the Museum, walked the Himalayas, and then out backwards from 18 green to 16 tee and meandered back to 1 tee...  I always like seeing a course in reverse which is hard to do on one play... other than The Loop.

Best

[Tim Martin]

...

The question really comes down to, can you speak confidently upon seeing a course once? I’m sure some can. I used to think I could but now I’m not so sure.


PS: Worth an another thread completely, this is one of the main reasons why I evangelize two things for friends traveling to the great links in GB&I. 1) join a club 2) go to TOC on a Sunday and spend as much time as you can walking the holes.

I always like seeing a course in reverse which is hard to do on one play... other than The Loop.

Best

I remember going to a Crump Cup years ago with Mike and Joe Bausch. Mike was adamant that we start on 18 and walk the holes backwards which really is a different perspective and was an interesting contrast to starting on 1 and going in sequence.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Fifteen years ago or so, I played courses in and around Cheshire. Among those we played were Delamere Forest, Prestbury, Stockport, Reddish Vale, Alwoodley, Beau Desert, and a few others. I had played most of the heathland courses in Surrey and Berkshire. These courses are a notch below those great courses. It was fun to figure out why some of them were ranked lower. It was difficult in some instances. I thought Delamere Forest, Alwoodley, and Prestbury could hold their own with anyone. They were interesting, challenging, with options off the tee, and good green surrounds. The only thing missing was some pizazz. They were more understated. Did I enjoy Delamere Forest as much as Walton Heath? Absolutely.

[Joe_Tucholski]

PS: Worth an another thread completely, this is one of the main reasons why I evangelize two things for friends traveling to the great links in GB&I. 1) join a club 2) go to TOC on a Sunday and spend as much time as you can walking the holes.

Interested to hear why you would recommend someone join a club on their first visit to GB&I?  I think it's a great thing to do but not until after their 3rd or 4th visit and they have an understanding of what they liked and what they want.


On the topic of the thread, I think it's a lot easier to be honest about a course that is second tier, for a lot of reasons.

[Ben Sims]

PS: Worth an another thread completely, this is one of the main reasons why I evangelize two things for friends traveling to the great links in GB&I. 1) join a club 2) go to TOC on a Sunday and spend as much time as you can walking the holes.

Interested to hear why you would recommend someone join a club on their first visit to GB&I?  I think it's a great thing to do but not until after their 3rd or 4th visit and they have an understanding of what they liked and what they want.


On the topic of the thread, I think it's a lot easier to be honest about a course that is second tier, for a lot of reasons.

I don’t have a convincing answer Joe, I just think it’s the way to go. It’s incredible what you can learn about a place with research. I think people have ample ability to find close to what they want using books and the internet. You can use a club as a base for travel within certain regions. And you won’t return without memory of what you did. I think it also means you’ll be more apt to play less well known courses if you’re not rushing from place to place to fill out the itinerary.

[Sean_A]

PS: Worth an another thread completely, this is one of the main reasons why I evangelize two things for friends traveling to the great links in GB&I. 1) join a club 2) go to TOC on a Sunday and spend as much time as you can walking the holes.

Interested to hear why you would recommend someone join a club on their first visit to GB&I?  I think it's a great thing to do but not until after their 3rd or 4th visit and they have an understanding of what they liked and what they want.


On the topic of the thread, I think it's a lot easier to be honest about a course that is second tier, for a lot of reasons.

I don’t have a convincing answer Joe, I just think it’s the way to go. It’s incredible what you can learn about a place with research. I think people have ample ability to find close to what they want using books and the internet. You can use a club as a base for travel within certain regions. And you won’t return without memory of what you did. I think it also means you’ll be more apt to play less well known courses if you’re not rushing from place to place to fill out the itinerary.

I would be quite concerned about the town/area. No chance I commit to a place I will spend many nights a year without first hand knowledge of that place.


Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

But on the same visit that I played Elie I also played Dunbar which I preferred by a smidge.

I'm biased.  But that's one of the most jarring things I've read on here in 16 years.  I like Dunbar but cannot imagine a set of criteria that would have me prefer it to Elie.

[mike_malone]

But on the same visit that I played Elie I also played Dunbar which I preferred by a smidge.

I'm biased.  But that's one of the most jarring things I've read on here in 16 years.  I like Dunbar but cannot imagine a set of criteria that would have me prefer it to Elie.

Mark,


It’s based on a feeling from a couple of years ago so it is fading from my memory. I played Elie by myself while I was with a gca guy at Dunbar and we got caught in a nasty squall but right at the little hut on the front. It saved us. Then as we turned along the coastline back I just loved those holes. I only remember the uphill hole on the coastline at Elie.
I said “ preferred by a smidge”.  This is a tough crowd.


My point is I agreed with Ira on one course and not the other. What made that so?


I need to understand that to  better gauge the differences in courses. Maybe I’ll play both again.

[Dan Gallaway]

Dunbar was the first play on our trip to Scotland last year and everyone in my group, except me, have it above Elie.  They are not GCA guys, so they were evaluating on experience, fun, views.  I think they preferred Dunbar over Muirfield even.  To be fair, I think they were in a few more bunkers at Muirfield.

[Mark Pearce]

Mayday, you need to get back to Elie if the 13th is the only hole you remember.  Let me know next time you're in Scotland.  Or get to BUDA in '24.

[Ronald Montesano]

This is certainly a peripatetic thread...

[Mike Worth]

I have a slightly different take


I like to play the lessor known courses because many are designed by architects of note. They are good courses but are not in well traveled areas or are just a notch below a top 100 course in quality.


I’ve taken 3 extended golf trips over the last two years, two were to the UK and Ireland. I like to play a mix of top 100 courses and the “lesser known.“ this is partially due to cost because playing seven or eight top 100 courses might set me back several thousand dollars


I keep a list of new courses I want to play in different countries, and I also keep a list of “must replays.”


My must replays are Elie, Machrihanish, Cleeve Hill, Seton Carew, Silloth, and Prairie Dunes.


Four of the 6 are not on any top 100 list

[Sean_A]

I have a slightly different take


I like to play the lessor known courses because many are designed by architects of note. They are good courses but are not in well traveled areas or are just a notch below a top 100 course in quality.

I’ve taken 3 extended golf trips over the last two years, two were to the UK and Ireland. I like to play a mix of top 100 courses and the “lesser known.“ this is partially due to cost because playing seven or eight top 100 courses might set me back several thousand dollars

I keep a list of new courses I want to play in different countries, and I also keep a list of “must replays.”

My must replays are Elie, Machrihanish, Cleeve Hill, Seton Carew, Silloth, and Prairie Dunes.

Four of the 6 are not on any top 100 list

Cleeve Hill a must replay? Why?

Happy New Year

[Mike Worth]

I have a slightly different take


I like to play the lessor known courses because many are designed by architects of note. They are good courses but are not in well traveled areas or are just a notch below a top 100 course in quality.

I’ve taken 3 extended golf trips over the last two years, two were to the UK and Ireland. I like to play a mix of top 100 courses and the “lesser known.“ this is partially due to cost because playing seven or eight top 100 courses might set me back several thousand dollars

I keep a list of new courses I want to play in different countries, and I also keep a list of “must replays.”

My must replays are Elie, Machrihanish, Cleeve Hill, Seton Carew, Silloth, and Prairie Dunes.

Four of the 6 are not on any top 100 list

Cleeve Hill a must replay? Why?

Happy New Year

For me it’s a vibes thing.


I find most if not all of the holes interesting. I like the varied terrain.  Every hole presented a different challenge. I played it two years ago, but I can still remember certain holes quite well, which adds to the intrigue of wanting to go back.  The approach to #2 green, the drive from #3, the par three quarry hole on the back nine, the ball-buster par four on the back where your second shot is played into a green that was once an ancient fort, the semi-blind uphill par 3 on the back.


And then you have those remarkable views from on top of the course of the surrounding hills and valleys


That it’s partially maintained with sheep adds to its allure – – it’s a bit primitive in that regard, but the maintenance is good enough for quality golf.