[A.G._Crockett]

A timely discussion! I was wondering the other day if I would have been a better basketball player if I had been 6'-8" instead of 5-8

Craig,
Speaking as a retired HS basketball coach, I’ll just repeat a saying among coaches before I give you my answer. 


“Quick people get tired, but big people never shrink!”


So yes, it’s highly likely that you would have been better had you been a foot taller.

[Drew Harvie]

I played Pebble Beach two weeks ago for the first time and the biggest gripe I had with the golf course was the greens, but not because of size. I liked the size of them, but from a pure golf standpoint, it felt very similar to playing golf on a Trackman (much like Bethpage, but not quite as extreme) around the greens, where I very rarely felt worried when I was chipping or pitching, and the up and downs around the greens were fairly straightforward (other than when I yanked wedge left of the bunker on 4!). As long as you didn't hit it over the back of the greens, I thought it a pretty mundane golf course to chip and pitch.


There wasn't much interest or contour, and there's obviously limits to what can be done in a smaller size green surface, but really ~any~movement would improve PB, which is such an amazing tee-to-green golf course. When comparing it to the rest of the American Top 20, I felt it was easily last in the green complex department, and while that still might be the case with just a bit more slope, I think it would improve the overall golf experience because it's very heavily reliant on a good ball-striking day, whereas other great golf courses ask a balance of everything.


By no means do I want big, C&C style greens or Doak slopes, but some of the old photos show a bit more interest and I'd love to see even 25% of that come back, but I get why they don't want to with tournaments and pace of play and all that administrative stuff.

[Mike Hendren]

Yes Drew, by all means let’s Sweetenize Pebble Beach.  In my book it’s a 10, so I’d do nothing.  In today’s world subtle doesn’t sizzle but it remains timeless and classic.  Doak slopes?  That’s a good one - what a crazy guy. 

[Mark_Fine]

Drew’s comments are a good example of why one time around or even five times around…. are not enough to properly judge the greatest golf courses. There is so much subtlety to those greens, as small as they might be.  They are by no means easy up and downs and they can play dramatically differently depending on the hole locations, conditions, ….  I have been lucky to play it dozens of times and still haven’t figured them out.  Most pros will tell you the same.  They are challenging greens to putt despite not having wild contours and buried elephants.  Like all golf courses, they have changed over time, but they by no means diminish the course in any way. 

[Niall C]

Drew’s comments are a good example of why one time around or even five times around…. are not enough to properly judge the greatest golf courses. There is so much subtlety to those greens, as small as they might be.  They are by no means easy up and downs and they can play dramatically differently depending on the hole locations, conditions, ….  I have been lucky to play it dozens of times and still haven’t figured them out.  Most pros will tell you the same.  They are challenging greens to putt despite not having wild contours and buried elephants.  Like all golf courses, they have changed over time, but they by no means diminish the course in any way.

Yes, but could the greens be better and would that make PB a better course ?


Niall

[Tim_Weiman]

I was very fortunate to play Riviera with a very prominent member (Norm K) and two very well-known people in the golf industry (both were scratch or better at the time). Norm talked about the course in very intimate detail and what made the design work over the forty (?) years he had been a member. The group talked a lot about the greens, the bunkers, angles and how they impact play. It was a special day for me.
 
About six year later I went back and walked Riviera during practice rounds (event was very accommodating to architects) with multiple groups “inside the ropes”. Players encouraged me to share what I saw and explained what I wanted to know.
 
At that point, there were six greens expanded by the Fazio Group. One of the reasons I was able to know exactly what had been done was Mike Weir’s Caddy (Brenden Little) had the old green book for when Mike won and a new green book with him. When I mentioned a change on the 3^rd green, we spent the rest of the day going through each change.

I was left sad by the whole experience. Yes, there were new “tucked” pins, often on the opposite side of the original tucked corners, but the expansions often removed the impact of the angles on the approach because they had enough room to come in from the less favorable side.

I got a chance to ask Tom the question, “Do you think everything can be improved?” It was actually in reference to Augusta National and changes on the 5^th green, but it applied here too. He said everything can be improved. It’s not how I feel.

My take-away is what makes a great piece of architecture is the equivalent of a Jenga stack. Most of it is obvious, because you can analyze what makes a hole or green using the known principles of golf architecture. But my personal take-away is often there is something on the best in architecture that makes a deeper connection and can’t be as easily explained.
 
It can be perfect tie-ins, something in the background that repeats in the contours, a sense of place, an unexpected choice in location, an exaggerated flourish in form, a slope only nature can create, whatever that magical quality is forms a bond. 
My issue with playing with greatness is its like playing Jenga, you might easily remove the initial pieces because they are easy to identify. But if you remove too much, it comes apart. If you remove the magic that makes something singular, you’ve undone what makes the place, the hole or the green special.

Once an architects done that, they can never put the original composition back because they have no fucking clue what it was. So that’s why you don’t fuck with greatness.

Ian,


Wow! You got to play Riviera with Norm. That must have been a real treat. I played Cape Kidnappers with him and it was a delight.


Anyway, regarding the subject of this thread - should the greens at Pebble Beach be changed - I am definitely in the “no” camp. While PB is not my favorite course, it does have the architectural feature I value most: it has its own character.


To really appreciate the art of golf architecture, one has to travel and when I do, I don’t want to keep seeing the same thing. Put another way, I want Pebble Beach to be different than, say, Old Macdonald and vise versa.

[Mark_Fine]

Niall,
I used to ask the same question about Bethpage Black - would the course be even better if the greens there were like the greens at Winged Foot?  The more I thought about it, the more I realized if they were, the course might be unplayable for almost everyone   


Let each course have it own unique nuances and character.  It’s ok! 


Getting back to Pebble Beach, the more you play there, the more you appreciate those greens.  I think they are almost perfect for Pebble Beach and part of its distinctiveness.  Same goes for greens at a course like Harbour Town, also known for small greens. 


Tim,
I used to play golf with Norm.  He was a good friend as was his wife Samn.  I miss them.  We played Riviera multiple times together including with Ian. 

[Drew Harvie]

Yes Drew, by all means let’s Sweetenize Pebble Beach.  In my book it’s a 10, so I’d do nothing.  In today’s world subtle doesn’t sizzle but it remains timeless and classic.  Doak slopes?  That’s a good one - what a crazy guy. 

I said I DIDN'T want Doak slopes... maybe read the post again

[Drew Harvie]

Niall,
I used to ask the same question about Bethpage Black - would the course be even better if the greens there were like the greens at Winged Foot?  The more I thought about it, the more I realized if they were, the course might be unplayable for almost everyone   


Let each course have it own unique nuances and character.  It’s ok! 


Getting back to Pebble Beach, the more you play there, the more you appreciate those greens.  I think they are almost perfect for Pebble Beach and part of its distinctiveness.  Same goes for greens at a course like Harbour Town, also known for small greens. 


Tim,
I used to play golf with Norm.  He was a good friend as was his wife Samn.  I miss them.  We played Riviera multiple times together including with Ian.

In my eyes, Harbour Town is a better set than Pebble, with more diversity and a bit more character (subtleties included). I'm not saying the greens at Pebble suck, but if we're discussing the top 20 in America and separating them, a bit of critical thought never hurt anyone, and I think that's the easiest way to improve a very good golf course as is.

[Tim_Weiman]

Niall,
I used to ask the same question about Bethpage Black - would the course be even better if the greens there were like the greens at Winged Foot?  The more I thought about it, the more I realized if they were, the course might be unplayable for almost everyone   


Let each course have it own unique nuances and character.  It’s ok! 


Getting back to Pebble Beach, the more you play there, the more you appreciate those greens.  I think they are almost perfect for Pebble Beach and part of its distinctiveness.  Same goes for greens at a course like Harbour Town, also known for small greens. 


Tim,
I used to play golf with Norm.  He was a good friend as was his wife Samn.  I miss them.  We played Riviera multiple times together including with Ian.

Mark,


Sam was on that trip to Cape Kidnappers as well. Her and Sam were both so LA.
Then, too, there was a woman that worked for Pebble Beach in a marketing role that every guy couldn’t help but drool over. But, that’s another story.

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