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Jerry Kluger

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Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« on: December 21, 2023, 10:49:37 PM »
I know that one of the recognized features of PB are the small greens and I was just wondering if they could be made better if an architect made them bigger by 25% or even 50% ? (Of course the complexes would have to be revised as needed.) Would they be better if they were completely redesigned by Doak or C & C with the necessary changes to the complexes to allow for more options in playing shots?  And what if #17 was redesigned to play as a Redan?  This is only a subject for discussion and I recognize that there is virtually no chance of it ever happening. 

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2023, 10:53:39 PM »
Wouldn't that just be a "different" golf course? Same routing, but very, very different all the same?

For example… 17 isn't a redan (and there's arguably more to a redan than a front right to back left slope). So, changing it to a redan would almost entirely change the hole itself.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2023, 10:58:23 PM »
In watching the AT&T at PB I have seen so many of the amateurs struggle with 17 as there is basically only way one to play the hole and getting to a pin on the left side is extremely difficult for the pros as well. I guess you could play right of the green and then chip on but we are not talking about needing a bail out area like at Cypress Point.

Craig Sweet

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2023, 11:47:55 PM »
A timely discussion! I was wondering the other day if I would have been a better basketball player if I had been 6'-8" instead of 5-8
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2023, 02:35:07 AM »
Jerry,


It has been a long time since I played Pebble Beach, though I did so about five time.


I am wondering which hole you think would benefit from a green that is 50% bigger.


For the sake of discussion, can you share with us three holes that you think would most benefit from a significantly larger green?
Tim Weiman

Tim Leahy

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2023, 05:11:52 AM »
Wouldn't the Mona Lisa be a better painting if she had a bigger smile?
 :o
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2023, 06:15:20 AM »
I think one thing to discuss about PB being better could be reversing 13-9.


After 8 >> play 13 in reverse, 12 in reverse, 11 backwards with then an awesome backdrop. Those 3 holes would be an improvement IMO.


Just if 10 and 9 are better reversed. Not sure?


I like the green complexes as they are.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom_Doak

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2023, 06:59:10 AM »
The greens at Pebble Beach would be in better CONDITION if they were 50% bigger.  It's hard to deal with that much traffic on greens that small.


Architecturally, though, the small greens are what make Pebble Beach a favorite of the Tour pros.  I wish we could build modern courses with greens that small, but superintendents won't let us!


Big greens are sloppy design.

Niall C

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2023, 08:07:35 AM »

Architecturally, though, the small greens are what make Pebble Beach a favorite of the Tour pros.


Are you sure ? I thought they just liked PB for the nice views.  :)


Niall

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2023, 08:40:26 AM »
Do the small greens limit the shots which can be played into the holes and if they were larger could you then use the slopes in the greens to getter to a hole location? Again, I am not criticizing rather I am discussing what the effect of the small greens are on how the course would play.


The Redan discussion was meant to point out that the green is really two small greens and the left portion probably makes the Postage Stamp look big as it is much larger than that portion of the 17th.

Niall C

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2023, 08:46:53 AM »
Wouldn't the Mona Lisa be a better painting if she had a bigger smile?
 :o


Maybe it would depending on how well the work was done, but to Erik's point, would it still be the Mona Lisa ? Well through modern technology such as x-rays they have been able to show that a lot of paintings by the old masters have been tweaked and changed through the years, with the changes done not always by the original artist.


Likewise there are a lot of highly rated and historic courses that have gone through several iterations but North Berwick is still "North Berwick" and Turnberry is still "Turnberry". So increasing the green sizes at PB would certainly do away with a distinct feature of PB but it would still be PB in my book. Would it be any better though ? Possibly, depending on how well it was done.

Niall

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2023, 08:53:11 AM »
I'm out of the loop on this, but have they recaptured all the lost green surface? If not, then the greens were larger, were they not?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Niall C

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2023, 08:54:20 AM »
Do the small greens limit the shots which can be played into the holes and if they were larger could you then use the slopes in the greens to getter to a hole location? Again, I am not criticizing rather I am discussing what the effect of the small greens are on how the course would play.


The Redan discussion was meant to point out that the green is really two small greens and the left portion probably makes the Postage Stamp look big as it is much larger than that portion of the 17th.


Jerry


I've played PB once so obviously I'm an expert  ;)


What goes hand in hand with the small greens is what you get when you fail to hit the target. From my one and only play I thought the rough round the fringes didn't allow for a lot of creativity or finesse in the recovery play. Of course that could just be me not being used to that type of grass.


I'd also say that for me the best bit about the existing design is the way the land is utilised for the waterfront holes. In other words the way they bring natural features into play. 


Niall

Ian Andrew

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Careful what you do ....
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2023, 09:43:43 AM »
I was very fortunate to play Riviera with a very prominent member (Norm K) and two very well-known people in the golf industry (both were scratch or better at the time). Norm talked about the course in very intimate detail and what made the design work over the forty (?) years he had been a member. The group talked a lot about the greens, the bunkers, angles and how they impact play. It was a special day for me.
 
About six year later I went back and walked Riviera during practice rounds (event was very accommodating to architects) with multiple groups “inside the ropes”. Players encouraged me to share what I saw and explained what I wanted to know.
 
At that point, there were six greens expanded by the Fazio Group. One of the reasons I was able to know exactly what had been done was Mike Weir’s Caddy (Brenden Little) had the old green book for when Mike won and a new green book with him. When I mentioned a change on the 3rd green, we spent the rest of the day going through each change.

I was left sad by the whole experience. Yes, there were new “tucked” pins, often on the opposite side of the original tucked corners, but the expansions often removed the impact of the angles on the approach because they had enough room to come in from the less favorable side.

I got a chance to ask Tom the question, “Do you think everything can be improved?” It was actually in reference to Augusta National and changes on the 5th green, but it applied here too. He said everything can be improved. It’s not how I feel.

My take-away is what makes a great piece of architecture is the equivalent of a Jenga stack. Most of it is obvious, because you can analyze what makes a hole or green using the known principles of golf architecture. But my personal take-away is often there is something on the best in architecture that makes a deeper connection and can’t be as easily explained.
 
It can be perfect tie-ins, something in the background that repeats in the contours, a sense of place, an unexpected choice in location, an exaggerated flourish in form, a slope only nature can create, whatever that magical quality is forms a bond. 
My issue with playing with greatness is its like playing Jenga, you might easily remove the initial pieces because they are easy to identify. But if you remove too much, it comes apart. If you remove the magic that makes something singular, you’ve undone what makes the place, the hole or the green special.

Once an architects done that, they can never put the original composition back because they have no fucking clue what it was. So that’s why you don’t fuck with greatness.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2023, 09:45:23 AM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2023, 09:50:39 AM »
The greens at Pebble Beach would be in better CONDITION if they were 50% bigger.  It's hard to deal with that much traffic on greens that small.


Architecturally, though, the small greens are what make Pebble Beach a favorite of the Tour pros.  I wish we could build modern courses with greens that small, but superintendents won't let us!


Big greens are sloppy design.
Tom,


Thanks your input. I went through all 18 holes in my mind and couldn’t identify any where I thought making greens 50% larger would make them more interesting.


Back when I played Pebble several times (more than 30 years ago), I was playing at the 7-8 HCP level. I’ll admit the 17th hole was really beyond my ability if the pin was on the left. So I played it the same way I played a right side pin. I aimed at the right edge of the green. A left side pin was harder to get up and down, but no less fun.


Jerry’s question is a good one for a golf architecture discussion group, but in the end, I think Pebble is just fine and really good as it is.
Tim Weiman

Tom_Doak

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2023, 10:04:47 AM »
I'm out of the loop on this, but have they recaptured all the lost green surface? If not, then the greens were larger, were they not?


Probably, in a few instances.  But your question assumes that the original version of Pebble Beach was as good as it got. 


Lots of restorations assume the same, but at least some of those were built by famous architects at the peak of their powers. 


Pebble was built by Jack Neville and Douglas Grant, then changed by Herbert Fowler, then tweaked by MacKenzie . . . but it wasn't immediately lauded as one of the very best courses in America.  Maybe part of that was lack of exposure, and/or East Coast bias, but maybe it wasn't considered that great until after the greens had shrunk.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2023, 10:54:46 AM »

Big greens are sloppy design.


Tom,

I'm having a hard time squaring this one up when we consider TOC, which to my knowledge has more square footage of greens over any course in the world...while also often considered to be one of the finest set of greens in the world.

It would seem small greens can be crap or excellent, just like big ones.  And I know you've built some fine large greens too at RCCC and Old Mac among other places I'm sure.

Mark_Fine

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2023, 11:54:36 AM »
There are very few things that can’t be improved upon if one looks hard enough.  That is the definition of innovation.  Sometimes though, we like certain things to stay the same or at least not change too much. The reason many of us have jobs in GCA, however, is because individuals/boards/committees are constantly trying to improve what they have. Sometimes they are successful, but many times they are not.  And sometimes trying to go back to what was originally there after all these “improvements” is a better alternative to what has evolved and/or been changed.  Making the greens bigger (if you could) at Pebble (I am heading out there in two weeks) would definitely make it a different golf course.  Would it be better, depends who you ask.  Sometimes bigger isn’t always better.  Would the little 7th hole be better if the green was 50% bigger?? Some might think so, others might say much of the interest and challenge would be lost if the target was that much larger.  Let’s hope in Pebble’s case we don’t find out :)It’s ok to have a course where precise shot making and scrambling and recovery shots from around a green are paramount.  Some think putting has become too important part of the game.  Why make large and wild putting surfaces the prominent feature at every golf course. 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2023, 04:20:25 PM by Mark_Fine »

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2023, 11:58:55 AM »
I'm out of the loop on this, but have they recaptured all the lost green surface? If not, then the greens were larger, were they not?


Probably, in a few instances.  But your question assumes that the original version of Pebble Beach was as good as it got. 


Lots of restorations assume the same, but at least some of those were built by famous architects at the peak of their powers. 


Pebble was built by Jack Neville and Douglas Grant, then changed by Herbert Fowler, then tweaked by MacKenzie . . . but it wasn't immediately lauded as one of the very best courses in America.  Maybe part of that was lack of exposure, and/or East Coast bias, but maybe it wasn't considered that great until after the greens had shrunk.




That's a good point and it sort of gives us our answer. The course had different (bigger) greens at one point. At that point, the course wasn't as well-thought-of as it was later on with smaller greens. It's not a perfectly scientific proof as you mentioned east coast bias and such, but it's all we've got to go on.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2023, 12:00:05 PM »
Who in the total universe would think 7 would be better with a 50% bigger green?


That might be the worst hypothetical I've ever read on GCA!
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tom_Doak

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2023, 03:50:17 PM »
Who in the total universe would think 7 would be better with a 50% bigger green?



Well, it's at least 25% bigger today than it was the first time I played it.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2023, 03:57:30 PM »
Who in the total universe would think 7 would be better with a 50% bigger green?


That might be the worst hypothetical I've ever read on GCA!


1) The superintendent
2) Golfers who hate ball marked greens that are rough to putt.
3) All other superintendents in support of the PB superintendent.


I agree with Tom, there have been many changes to this course so picking one thing, even if a big one like the greens, to stake your ground is a bit naive.  Of course, the entire restore vs. renovate is based on issues just like this.  Design including redesign really does have to ask questions about making the course better for both now and in the future. 


BTW, am I the only one who thinks the Palmer redo of the bunkering improved the course?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2023, 04:21:52 PM »
Jeff,
I was thinking the same as you about #7 - The Superintendent :) .   Most supers do not like small greens.  Wonder why  ;)   But they don’t like overly large ones either.

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2023, 04:27:11 PM »
I think the other side of the discussion might be the reaction I have heard from very good players after they played Old Macdonald at Bandon Dunes.  Almost all of them didn't like it and the reason was how very big the greens are.  The better player can accept missing a green and then failing to get up and down as opposed three putting on a very big green.  So the very best players would prefer the small greens at PB. 


I can see the green side bunkers at PB to be fair and give you a chance for a good recovery shot but do the grasses around the greens give you the same opportunity?  In watching the pros play PB it does seem that the thick grass around the greens poses a very strong test to recover. 




Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Would Pebble Beach be better with different greens?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2023, 04:36:21 PM »
Who in the total universe would think 7 would be better with a 50% bigger green?



Well, it's at least 25% bigger today than it was the first time I played it.


You know the math on % growth off a small number.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

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