Battle of the Carolina Sandhills(es)

[Paul Rudovsky]

Looks like there is beginning to be a real competition developing between North Carolina's Sandhills region and South Carolina's Sandhills region.  Using a circle with a radius of say 25 miles, North Carolina's SH has or will have : #2, #10, #11, Tobacco Road, and Dormie as its starting collection with bench consisting of Southern Pines, Mid Pines, Pine Needles, CCNC (DW and Card), and Forest Creek (N & S).


South Carolina is looking like a starting team of Tree Farm, Old Barnwell, 21 Club (2 courses), ANGC, and Palmetto, and have a bench that would include Augusta CC, Sage Valley, and Aiken Muni.


In terms of golf history, SC has a long way to go to catch up IMO...but the architecture race is for sure heating up. 


Additions or subtractions to these two teams are of course welcome as would some suggested shuffling of the "starting lineups"

[Joe_Tucholski]

Think it's tough to put things in a starting line up when they haven't opened and tougher when construction hasn't even started.  Has #11 even been officially announced?


That being said I do think it's an interesting discussion.  If it's a match play with the top courses I'm taking SC/GA over NC.


Overall I'm going with NC.

[Tommy Williamsen]

NC has a much stronger set of private clubs, but SC is on the road to catching up.

[Joe_Tucholski]

NC has a much stronger set of private clubs, but SC is on the road to catching up.

I was going the opposite.  Are you talking all of NC versus the sand hills 25 mile radius around Pinehurst/Aiken?


SC/GA - Augusta National, Augusta CC, Palmetto, Old Barnwell, Tree Farm, Sage Valley...
Pinehurst - Dormie, Forest Creek, CCNC (not sure what else would be included).

[Paul Rudovsky]

Joe--


As I recall, #11 was announced in concept with the plan being Coore-Crenshaw as architects with construction starting approx Spring 2024 (with opening of #10).  Have heard rumors that C-C may not be ready to start that early (gather most architects are facing big backlogs) so I no idea what current plans are but would be shocked if start of #11 pushed into 2025 (assuming economy continues to hold up).


My concept was anything within 25 miles of Sandhills in NC (which brings Tobacco Road into the NC team) and 25 miles from Aiken (which brings ANGC and Augusta CC into the equation.  I am NOT including all of NC (which would bring in Old Town, Charlotte CC, Wade Hampton, etc.) and I am NOT bringing in all of SC or all of GA (which would of course bring in Kiawah-Ocean, Congaree, Yeamans, and Harbour Town for SC and Peachtree and Whoopee from GA).


Paul

[Ally Mcintosh]

Paul,


I love your enthusiasm for seeing all things new but I thought the preview plays discussion was as far as we go.


This is officially where ranking golf courses has jumped the shark: Putting a course that hasn’t even been announced yet in or around a World Top-100 based almost solely on the architects name even though they haven’t scheduled whether or when they can start the design.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Paul,


I love your enthusiasm for seeing all things new but I thought the preview plays discussion was as far as we go.


This is officially where ranking golf courses has jumped the shark: Putting a course that hasn’t even been announced yet in or around a World Top-100 based almost solely on the architects name even though they haven’t scheduled whether or when they can start the design.

Ally--With all due respect, I have not attempted to create a new Top 100 or anything like it based on preliminary announcements and/or unfinished courses. 

I am merely pointing out that there is a new "Sandhills" region emerging in SC about 200 miles southwest of the the NC Sandhills and what these two "Carolina Sandhills" regions might look like in about 2-3 years. 

The amount of construction activity going on worldwide has and will continue to change the places in the USA and the world where there may be high concentrations of superb courses.  Over the last 10-15 years or so I would point to Tasmania in Australia, the North Island in NZ (particularly the area where Tara Iti and Te Arai are), Vietnam, Wisconsin, Nashville, Utah (and others I cannot think of at 4am)...and it looks like in the next few years Aiken SC, Texas, West Palm Beach are really set to grow very rapidly.  I would guess those trends might be interesting and even important for people who come this this website.

Believe it or not, I am well aware of the faults associated with any "top XXX" listing.  Frankly I think any such listing will have its faults (but that some listings are better than others).  Everyone's taste in things like this is different and that is great...it is "what makes the world go round" as they say. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Paul,


I love your enthusiasm for seeing all things new but I thought the preview plays discussion was as far as we go.


This is officially where ranking golf courses has jumped the shark: Putting a course that hasn’t even been announced yet in or around a World Top-100 based almost solely on the architects name even though they haven’t scheduled whether or when they can start the design.

Ally--With all due respect, I have not attempted to create a new Top 100 or anything like it based on preliminary announcements and/or unfinished courses. 

I am merely pointing out that there is a new "Sandhills" region emerging in SC about 200 miles southwest of the the NC Sandhills and what these two "Carolina Sandhills" regions might look like in about 2-3 years. 

The amount of construction activity going on worldwide has and will continue to change the places in the USA and the world where there may be high concentrations of superb courses.  Over the last 10-15 years or so I would point to Tasmania in Australia, the North Island in NZ (particularly the area where Tara Iti and Te Arai are), Vietnam, Wisconsin, Nashville, Utah (and others I cannot think of at 4am)...and it looks like in the next few years Aiken SC, Texas, West Palm Beach are really set to grow very rapidly.  I would guess those trends might be interesting and even important for people who come this this website.

Believe it or not, I am well aware of the faults associated with any "top XXX" listing.  Frankly I think any such listing will have its faults (but that some listings are better than others).  Everyone's taste in things like this is different and that is great...it is "what makes the world go round" as they say. 

Paul,

I am somewhat biased, of course, but I don’t see anything wrong with suggesting that the Aiken, South Carolina area is emerging as one of the hot spots in golf course development that before long may rival the Sandhills area of North Carolina.

Aiken is not Bandon or Sand Valley. It is not Mike Keiser’s vision of “dream golf” - great courses open to the public. With the exception of Aiken Golf Club - a really good muni IMO - the courses being developed in Aiken are private clubs (each with a different character) where access might be an issue. But I have no doubt Aiken will be a destination golf architecture junkies will want to visit.

The concept of “preview play” has emerged and Old Barnwell will still be in that status until the  fall, but my understanding is that the grow in is going well and play should be enjoyable when you visit this spring. Apparently it already is, no surprise given the sand base.

Look forward to seeing you again. Hope all is well.

Tim

[Peter Sayegh]

Paul,


I love your enthusiasm for seeing all things new but I thought the preview plays discussion was as far as we go.


This is officially where ranking golf courses has jumped the shark: Putting a course that hasn’t even been announced yet in or around a World Top-100 based almost solely on the architects name even though they haven’t scheduled whether or when they can start the design.

Ally--With all due respect, I have not attempted to create a new Top 100 or anything like it based on preliminary announcements and/or unfinished courses. 

I am merely pointing out that there is a new "Sandhills" region emerging in SC about 200 miles southwest of the the NC Sandhills and what these two "Carolina Sandhills" regions might look like in about 2-3 years. 

The amount of construction activity going on worldwide has and will continue to change the places in the USA and the world where there may be high concentrations of superb courses.  Over the last 10-15 years or so I would point to Tasmania in Australia, the North Island in NZ (particularly the area where Tara Iti and Te Arai are), Vietnam, Wisconsin, Nashville, Utah (and others I cannot think of at 4am)...and it looks like in the next few years Aiken SC, Texas, West Palm Beach are really set to grow very rapidly.  I would guess those trends might be interesting and even important for people who come this this website.

Believe it or not, I am well aware of the faults associated with any "top XXX" listing.  Frankly I think any such listing will have its faults (but that some listings are better than others).  Everyone's taste in things like this is different and that is great...it is "what makes the world go round" as they say. 

Paul,

I am somewhat biased, of course, but I don’t see anything wrong with suggesting that the Aiken, South Carolina area is emerging as one of the hot spots in golf course development that before long may rival the Sandhills area of North Carolina.

Aiken is not Bandon or Sand Valley. It is not Mike Keiser’s vision of “dream golf” - great courses open to the public. With the exception of Aiken Golf Club - a really good muni IMO - the courses being developed in Aiken are private clubs (each with a different character) where access might be an issue. But I have no doubt Aiken will be a destination golf architecture junkies will want to visit.

The concept of “preview play” has emerged and Old Barnwell will still be in that status until the  fall, but my understanding is that the grow in is going well and play should be enjoyable when you visit this spring. Apparently it already is, no surprise given the sand base.

Look forward to seeing you again. Hope all is well.

Tim

Ally & Tim,
I think Paul was just highlighting some of the more expensive, more private, and yet un-built courses of the two regions that will "continue to grow the game" in his statement.

PCC #12 and #13 will surely seal the win for the Tarheel state.

[Tim_Weiman]

Peter,


PCC #12 and #13. When and where will those be built? Doesn’t #11 need to happen first?


As for North Carolina, though not in the Sandhills, the state does have an awfully good muni. Personally I would prefer playing Wilmington Municipal over Bethpage.

[Jeff Schley]

PCC #12 and #13.

I got a great name for #13......... Bakers Dozen 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Paul,


I was being a little glib. I fully realise that there is and should be a huge interest in new courses and exciting congregations of courses from participants on this website….


…but I did find it quite humorous that a course that isn’t yet designed is presumed to be at the very top tier among some pretty serious competition.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

North Carolina's SH has or will have : #2, #10, #11, Tobacco Road, and Dormie as its starting collection with bench consisting of Southern Pines, Mid Pines, Pine Needles, CCNC (DW and Card), and Forest Creek (N & S).

I don't know about that starting roster and list.

SP/MP/PN might be > TR, and you left #4 off entirely.

I'm not sure about including GA courses, either, but I get that they're just barely across the border.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Ally--


Absolutely no problem...but at least statistically Coore-Crenshaw (assuming they end up as the architects) has a pretty damn good batting average. 


Erik--


No "right answer" here.  I happen to think TR is one of the most underrated courses in the USA...I really love it.  And that is taking nothing away from the PN/MP/SP threesome.  However, with regard to #4, my sense has been that it still suffers from real drainage issues caused by the shape of Pinehurst's land...all the rain etc that hits #2 flows downhill to #4.  Would never have it in my USA Top 200.  Again...that is IMO...others certainly may disagree!

[A.G._Crockett]

Extra credit to the NC list for the percentage that are public access?


(And I’d definitely substitute #4 for courses that don’t exist yet…)

[Erik J. Barzeski]

No "right answer" here.  I happen to think TR is one of the most underrated courses in the USA...I really love it.

Clearly! 

I'm going to TR soon and really looking forward to it (two first-timers on the trip), too, but I put MP/PN/SP ahead of it.

(And I’d definitely substitute #4 for courses that don’t exist yet…)

Yeah.

[Tim_Weiman]

Extra credit to the NC list for the percentage that are public access?


(And I’d definitely substitute #4 for courses that don’t exist yet…)

Most golf architecture junkies find a way on to many, if not all, private courses. So extra credit for public access courses? IDK. We have never deducted points from Pine Valley, Cypress Point or NGLA for their private status.

[Edward Glidewell]

Most golf architecture junkies find a way on to many, if not all, private courses. So extra credit for public access courses? IDK. We have never deducted points from Pine Valley, Cypress Point or NGLA for their private status.

I don't think that's actually true -- it's incredibly difficult to get on most private clubs with great architecture if you don't already have contacts somewhere to help you.

[Tim_Weiman]

Most golf architecture junkies find a way on to many, if not all, private courses. So extra credit for public access courses? IDK. We have never deducted points from Pine Valley, Cypress Point or NGLA for their private status.

I don't think that's actually true -- it's incredibly difficult to get on most private clubs with great architecture if you don't already have contacts somewhere to help you.

Edward,


I wouldn’t deny that contacts can be necessary to get on most private clubs with great architecture, but let me share a little bit of my experience.


I grew up in Westchester County, New York and was about 3 years old when I decided I loved golf courses. At ten years old I got my first golf architecture book when Sports Illustrated published their book about the best golf holes in America.


That was 1966 and when I decided I wanted to see all the best courses I could. Today, there aren’t many I want to see that I haven’t and honestly, in each case,  it has been my lack of effort and not the difficulty of access.


My experience has been that most people can sense if you are a genuine student of golf architecture and will likely be welcoming. Not always, but quite often really.


One decision I made long ago was to differentiate between playing and studying a course. For example, I walked Crystal Downs with a member before a return trip to play the course. The same is true of my experience at Pine Valley.


I know some people argue that playing a course is necessary to understanding and appreciating the architecture, but I don’t agree and regardless, I would rather walk a great course first before playing it. I mention this because you might wind up doing both with a little effort even if you don’t have a contact at that club.

[A.G._Crockett]

Extra credit to the NC list for the percentage that are public access?


(And I’d definitely substitute #4 for courses that don’t exist yet…)

Most golf architecture junkies find a way on to many, if not all, private courses. So extra credit for public access courses? IDK. We have never deducted points from Pine Valley, Cypress Point or NGLA for their private status.

No deduction for ANY course for being private; I’m a member of a private club myself.


But in THIS comparison of two lists, the ability to actually play the courses mentioned without fighting for access seems significant, at least to me. If we both make a 95 on a test, but I get extra credit for some reason and my grade is raised, yours isn’t lower; it’s still an A.  Mine is just higher.

[Edward Glidewell]

Most golf architecture junkies find a way on to many, if not all, private courses. So extra credit for public access courses? IDK. We have never deducted points from Pine Valley, Cypress Point or NGLA for their private status.

I don't think that's actually true -- it's incredibly difficult to get on most private clubs with great architecture if you don't already have contacts somewhere to help you.

Edward,


I wouldn’t deny that contacts can be necessary to get on most private clubs with great architecture, but let me share a little bit of my experience.


I grew up in Westchester County, New York and was about 3 years old when I decided I loved golf courses. At ten years old I got my first golf architecture book when Sports Illustrated published their book about the best golf holes in America.


That was 1966 and when I decided I wanted to see all the best courses I could. Today, there aren’t many I want to see that I haven’t and honestly, in each case,  it has been my lack of effort and not the difficulty of access.


My experience has been that most people can sense if you are a genuine student of golf architecture and will likely be welcoming. Not always, but quite often really.


One decision I made long ago was to differentiate between playing and studying a course. For example, I walked Crystal Downs with a member before a return trip to play the course. The same is true of my experience at Pine Valley.


I know some people argue that playing a course is necessary to understanding and appreciating the architecture, but I don’t agree and regardless, I would rather walk a great course first before playing it. I mention this because you might wind up doing both with a little effort even if you don’t have a contact at that club.

I think it was probably much easier to get access with a letter or other means 30 years ago than it is today, but I admit I'm speculating.

[Tim_Weiman]

Edward,


I don’t know. In some cases, it may depend on the location and demand to play the course. With other clubs, without a personal connection, you just may be out of luck.

[Joe_Tucholski]

Extra credit to the NC list for the percentage that are public access?

When making a personal decision about where to actually live, NC sandhills is where I choose because of the quantity and quality of the public access courses.  That's what I meant by overall.


If I could play all the courses in SC/GA sandhills for similar prices, I'd go there.

[Tim_Weiman]

Extra credit to the NC list for the percentage that are public access?

When making a personal decision about where to actually live, NC sandhills is where I choose because of the quantity and quality of the public access courses.  That's what I meant by overall.


If I could play all the courses in SC/GA sandhills for similar prices, I'd go there.

Joe,


Can you share the five North Carolina Sandhills courses you are most likely to play and what the green fees are?

[Joe_Tucholski]

Joe,


Can you share the five North Carolina Sandhills courses you are most likely to play and what the green fees are?

I bought a house in the village of Pinehurst in 2012.  I'll likely retire in 2030 and spend the majority of the year in Pinehurst.  Courses 1-6 and 8 for less than $600/month (additional trail fee at #2).  Off season rates at Mid Pines and Southern Pines are under $100.  Tobacco Road is just over $100 off season.  I also have played a number of the non-big name courses for less.


How do you think it would look for me in SC?