New "El Boqueron" Inspired Course - 21 Golf Club

[Rich Milligan]

https://www.instagram.com/p/C0hiohVO_eG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

The description says a new golf club is opening in South Carolina, and will feature two courses. I am very interested to see how the "Lost MacKenzie" course takes shape, as it is apparently inspired by Dr. MacKenzie's "El Boqueron" plans.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

This project has been around for awhile...since 2011. Has construction started?

https://moegolf.net/2011/10/08/the-lost-mackenzie-of-el-boqueron/

[Rich Milligan]

This article is more in the depth of the whole two courses;


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/new-south-carolina-courses-hellbent-on-breaking-convention-old-barnwell-the-tree-farm

The project I mentioned is separate from Old Barnwell and the Tree Farm. 

[Ben Hollerbach]

This project has been around for awhile...since 2011. Has construction started?

https://moegolf.net/2011/10/08/the-lost-mackenzie-of-el-boqueron/

The ownership of 21 is different than the project that was being driven in Texas a decade ago. I believe they acquired the rights from that project owner to build it in South Carolina.

I do believe there is a chance Mike DeVries is still involved, but I'm not certain.

[Blake Conant]

This project has been around for awhile...since 2011. Has construction started?

https://moegolf.net/2011/10/08/the-lost-mackenzie-of-el-boqueron/

The ownership of 21 is different than the project that was being driven in Texas a decade ago. I believe they acquired the rights from that project owner to build it in South Carolina.

I do believe there is a chance Mike DeVries is still involved, but I'm not certain.

Why do you think anyone needs rights to build it? The plan has been circulating online for a long time now. Someone owns the original copy, which is a cool piece of history, but it doesn’t give them a right over anyone else to actually build it.

[Ben Hollerbach]

This project has been around for awhile...since 2011. Has construction started?

https://moegolf.net/2011/10/08/the-lost-mackenzie-of-el-boqueron/

The ownership of 21 is different than the project that was being driven in Texas a decade ago. I believe they acquired the rights from that project owner to build it in South Carolina.

I do believe there is a chance Mike DeVries is still involved, but I'm not certain.

Why do you think anyone needs rights to build it? The plan has been circulating online for a long time now. Someone owns the original copy, which is a cool piece of history, but it doesn’t give them a right over anyone else to actually build it.

While the plan has been circulated, it is not in the public domain. David Edel acquired the rights to the plan from the family to build the course.

Why do you think you shouldn't have the rights to the original design to build the course? Especially if you're going to brand the course using El Boqueron and MacKenzie?

[Blake Conant]

This project has been around for awhile...since 2011. Has construction started?

https://moegolf.net/2011/10/08/the-lost-mackenzie-of-el-boqueron/

The ownership of 21 is different than the project that was being driven in Texas a decade ago. I believe they acquired the rights from that project owner to build it in South Carolina.

I do believe there is a chance Mike DeVries is still involved, but I'm not certain.

Why do you think anyone needs rights to build it? The plan has been circulating online for a long time now. Someone owns the original copy, which is a cool piece of history, but it doesn’t give them a right over anyone else to actually build it.

While the plan has been circulated, it is not in the public domain. David Edel acquired the rights to the plan from the family to build the course.

Why do you think you shouldn't have the rights to the original design to build the course? Especially if you're going to brand the course using El Boqueron and MacKenzie?

The rights from the family to build the course? What does that mean? They have rights to implement that design anywhere on earth in perpetuity? I’m sure David Edel wants folks to believe that’s the case.


I don’t know enough about the legal ramifications of branding it as El Boqueron, but let’s set that aside for a second. What’s stopping me or anyone from taking the image above, overlaying it onto a parcel of land, and building it to scale? Further, I can go find the piece of land it was slated for and find topo or lidar and create a grading plan from that.

[Niall C]

Ben


You probably need someone with knowledge of copyright law to answer but MacKenzie published, or had published, a number of plans in Golf Illustrated UK and i think off the top of my head that El Boqueron might have been one. That, and the fact that Mac died more than 70 years ago probably has some bearing I'd have thought.


Niall 

[Ben Hollerbach]

The rights from the family to build the course? What does that mean? They have rights to implement that design anywhere on earth in perpetuity? I’m sure David Edel wants folks to believe that’s the case.

From the 2009 Thomas Dunne article, the original agreement with David Edel had many use stipulations, including an execution timeline and name use rights.

You probably need someone with knowledge of copyright law to answer but MacKenzie published, or had published, a number of plans in Golf Illustrated UK and i think off the top of my head that El Boqueron might have been one. That, and the fact that Mac died more than 70 years ago probably has some bearing I'd have thought.

I don't think I've seen El Boqueron reference prior to the Thomas Dunne article, MacKenzie didn't not list the course as one of his designs in the Spirit of St. Andrews.

It would seem MacKenzie being dead more than 70 years would have no bearing on this matter, as the plan to the course has been privately owned since its commission.

It is an interesting question. If I was to build a Frank Lloyd Wright house today would that be considered infringement?

[David_Tepper]

Hasn't this matter already been litigated with the Tour 18 and other "copycat" courses? Can one copyright the design/plans for a golf course, especially one that has never been built? 

[Mike Bodo]

Hasn't this matter already been litigated with the Tour 18 and other "copycat" courses? Can one copyright the design/plans for a golf course, especially one that has never been built?

In the U.S., yes! Our company often copyrights or trademarks brand names and product designs we never actually produce and or release and renew them on occasion in the event we decide to license them to someone else. This happens all the time with other companies and individuals.

[David_Tepper]

Copyright protection for golf course design has already been discussed here:

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=69322.0


 

[Blake Conant]

Copyright protection for golf course design has already been discussed here:

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=69322.0


 

It’s an interesting thread, but nothing in there about courses that were never built.


Re: El Boqueron, I understand David Engel signed an agreement with the family in exchange for the plans. That agreement included naming rights and a 5 year execution timeline. I ultimately question how the family even has the right to any of that stuff? I fear David Engel paid for it and believed it was legitimate, but he essentially just bought a piece of art. Do they have a copyright for the name “el Boqueron” that was passed on in that contract? If the playing surface of the 18th hole at harbour town can be replicated exactly, surely a conceptual plan of a course never built can be replicated.


To accurately answer the question we’d need to see that contract and have a lawyer sort it out. And maybe that’s what ends up happening!

[Rich Milligan]

Has anyone ever discussed possibly building a course according to the MacKenzie Club Nautico San Isidro plans? I believe that club ultimately decided to go in a different direction, but the drawing is absolutely spectacular.

[Thomas Dai]

A previous GCA thread with links and photos etc - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38874.msg1627093.html#msg1627093
Atb

[Ben Hollerbach]

The routing for both courses at The 21 Club, with the El Boqueron course located in the lower left.

[Ronald Montesano]

Well, if El boqueron is taken, just call the new one El anchoa.

Case closed.

[Justin Hill]

Interesting.  Hope the gentleman developing it does know something about the law.


Sounds like the other course is being built first.

[Tim_Weiman]

Does anyone know if construction has started?

[Ben Hollerbach]

Construction is scheduled to begin in late spring. And yes the gentleman developing the course does happen to be a lawyer.

[Peter Flory]

It looks like they are trying to somewhat copy the plans from a 2D perspective, but not 3D. 


The 17th hole on the original, for example, was designed to climb 70 feet from tee to green. 

[Ben Hollerbach]

It looks like they are trying to somewhat copy the plans from a 2D perspective, but not 3D. 


The 17th hole on the original, for example, was designed to climb 70 feet from tee to green.

I can't say for certain how they intend to lay out the course on the property. But the site is pretty hilly. Its ~170 feet from the low point to the high point.

[Blake Conant]

It looks like they are trying to somewhat copy the plans from a 2D perspective, but not 3D. 


The 17th hole on the original, for example, was designed to climb 70 feet from tee to green.

I can't say for certain how they intend to lay out the course on the property. But the site is pretty hilly. Its ~170 feet from the low point to the high point.

Do you have a role in the golf course/development, Ben?

[Ben Hollerbach]

Blake,
I consulted for the owner during the early planning on the project.

[Tim_Weiman]

Blake,
I consulted for the owner during the early planning on the project.

Ben,


I think we can understand the Lido project - the original was considered among the
World’s very best course - but why El Boqueron? What is the appeal for the developer?