Clubhouses and routings....

[Mike_Young]

IMHO clubhouse location has determined most routings and on courses with elevation clubhouse location has determined that most 9th holes and finishing holes will be an uphill approach.  Why?

[Tim_Weiman]

IMHO clubhouse location has determined most routings and on courses with elevation clubhouse location has determined that most 9th holes and finishing holes will be an uphill approach.  Why?

Mike,


Is it any more complicated than many, if not most, developers prefer a clubhouse where members can sit and view the course?


Of course this assumes an elevated location to build the course exists.

[A.G._Crockett]

Mike, you’re right, of course.  Bill Bergin told me years ago when we were playing one of his original designs that the 10th hole wasn’t the hole he wanted to build, but had to because of where the developer wanted the clubhouse.  I haven’t come across many courses where the clubhouse wasn’t on the high ground of the property.


The coolest one is Bulls Bay; Strantz used all the excavated sand to build what is now the highest point in Mt Pleasant; the clubhouse is on top of the mind, and both 9 and 18 play WAY uphill, certainly for coastal course.



One interesting exception to this is Ansley/Settindown Creek in Roswell; the original intended location of the clubhouse was close to the road and just into Cherokee County.  But the county wouldn’t give the club a liquor license, so the clubhouse was located in Fulton County, and the sequence (not routing) of the holes was changed greatly and IMO much for the worse.

[Rob Marshall]

IMHO clubhouse location has determined most routings and on courses with elevation clubhouse location has determined that most 9th holes and finishing holes will be an uphill approach.  Why?

Bulls Bay would be a great example of that.

[Steve Lang]

   The secret is very subtle between designing the sanitary sewer line or septic leach field from an uphill setting or having
#1 & 10 tee shots going down the playing field quicker... take yer pick...

[Thomas Dai]

Clubhouse on the edge of town.
Play out and away and then turn around and play back in.
Out and in.
Pretty historical/traditional and still the case in some parts of the World.
Atb

[Ben Sims]

Mike, I really enjoyed the approach to the 9th at The Fields. The 18th was less favorite, though I did get to drive it since the tees were forward due to construction on the others. Old Barnwell, Ballyneal, and The Fields all have a right to left 18th where you drive across lower terrain and slightly climb to the green. I really enjoy that kind of hole as finisher. Seems a clubhouse on higher ground is important for most routings.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Generally clubhouses at the top of a hill / best view; or nearest the entrance road for lower infrastructure and utility costs.


Maybe 10% of jobs allow the GCA to have a say in location of the clubhouse. Total speculation with that last figure.

[A.G._Crockett]

IMHO clubhouse location has determined most routings and on courses with elevation clubhouse location has determined that most 9th holes and finishing holes will be an uphill approach.  Why?

Bulls Bay would be a great example of that.

That’s not what happened at Bulls Bay.  The elevation on which the clubhouse as well as the 9th and 18th greens are located was almost completely constructed by Mike Strantz.  And he did it without binging in a single shovel,of dirt.

[Ian Cox]

Quail Valley, Vero Beach, FL is a very good example (like Bulls Bay) where a flat site used the spoil from the excavated lakes to create a quite dramatic change in elevation (for a flat as a pancake former citrus grove) to site their clubhouse, which incidentally was designed to offer deference to SHGC truly sublime clubhouse and setting, the course is well worth a play to!

[A.G._Crockett]

Quail Valley, Vero Beach, FL is a very good example (like Bulls Bay) where a flat site used the spoil from the excavated lakes to create a quite dramatic change in elevation (for a flat as a pancake former citrus grove) to site their clubhouse, which incidentally was designed to offer deference to SHGC truly sublime clubhouse and setting, the course is well worth a play to!

I believe the Bulls Bay property had been a tomato farm, and dead flat.

[A.G._Crockett]

Mike, I’ll add this also.  I’ve been fooled a couple of times into going into the pro shop and buying something warm that would cut the wind because the clubhouse, parking lot, putting green, and practice range are the highest, most exposed spots on the entire property. 


Then when I stated playing and got to lower ground, especially if there were trees, I realized I had a very expensive garment that I didn’t really want or need.

[Mike_Young]

Mike, I’ll add this also.  I’ve been fooled a couple of times into going into the pro shop and buying something warm that would cut the wind because the clubhouse, parking lot, putting green, and practice range are the highest, most exposed spots on the entire property. 


Then when I stated playing and got to lower ground, especially if there were trees, I realized I had a very expensive garment that I didn’t really want or need.

Jeff and Mike Jones were two shapers at BB who worked for MS.  I think the elevation at the top of the hill was 62 feet and it all came from ponds etc.  Not sure what the second highest elevation is but pretty sure Joe Rice, the owner wanted to make sure it was the highest before they stopped piling dirt.   

[Mike_Young]

My reason for asking is because I can't think of any 18th holes on an elevated site that play downhill.

[Ian Andrew]

Nanea in Hawaii dramatically downhill

[Mike_Young]

Nanea in Hawaii dramatically downhill

Thanks Ian.  Hope all is well up there...

[Sean_A]

My reason for asking is because I can't think of any 18th holes on an elevated site that play downhill.

This is quite common for hilltop courses in the UK. Classic era courses designed with the house near the bottom of the property. I spose it saved on infrastructure costs.


Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Lots of the old links courses have some quite bland land close to the clubhouse, because obviously the course had to start near to the road, and sometimes the dunes were a little way away. Machrihanish is a classic example of this; it gets away with it because the first tee shot is so spectacular, but in reality the land that the first hole, and more obviously the seventeenth and eighteen, traverse is a bit dull. Machrihanish really gets going, imo, when you cross the burn on the second hole and move into the duneland.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Eighteen at Musgrove Mill plays about 14 feet downhill. The climb to the clubhouse from the green, however, is a heart-pounding 65 feet.

[Tom_Doak]

My reason for asking is because I can't think of any 18th holes on an elevated site that play downhill.

Haven't you played Stonewall?


It happened that way because the buildings were already there, built as barns not for golf.  But we wound up with one of the coolest 18th holes in golf because it plays down into that setting.  I don't really ski but I imagine that's what skiing back into a town in the Swiss Alps feels like.

[Mike Wagner]

My reason for asking is because I can't think of any 18th holes on an elevated site that play downhill.

Sand Point CC in Seattle.

[Jeff Schley]

Nanea in Hawaii dramatically downhill

Kapalua for downhill 18th!  Although the clubhouse still is high and has great views as most of the course does.

[BCrosby]

Gullane.

[Tommy Williamsen]

My reason for asking is because I can't think of any 18th holes on an elevated site that play downhill.

Haven't you played Stonewall?


It happened that way because the buildings were already there, built as barns not for golf.  But we wound up with one of the coolest 18th holes in golf because it plays down into that setting.  I don't really ski but I imagine that's what skiing back into a town in the Swiss Alps feels like.

[Tim Martin]

My reason for asking is because I can't think of any 18th holes on an elevated site that play downhill.

Essex County Club