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Tony Ristola

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36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« on: November 30, 2023, 06:28:26 PM »
Opened in 1923.
Was interesting to find out.
Any guesses?

Tim_Weiman

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2023, 08:00:01 PM »
Opened in 1923.
Was interesting to find out.
Any guesses?
Tony,


Sad we lost Neil Regan much too early. I’m sure he knew the whole story.
Tim Weiman

Phil Young

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2023, 10:48:11 PM »
Course construction began in May, 1922. On September 8th, 1923, the club held opening ceremonies for both courses. I miss Neal a great deal as well. John H. Elliff, one of Tilly's construction supervisors, oversaw the construction from start to finish.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2023, 10:55:17 PM by Phil Young »

Tony Ristola

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2023, 06:47:52 AM »
Opened in 1923.
Was interesting to find out.
Any guesses?
Tony,


Sad we lost Neil Regan much too early. I’m sure he knew the whole story.
According to the club magazine at the time, "The courses are now completed, constructed in record time of four months..." October, 1922.


Construction started May 1, 1922, and they had a rainy June!


Considering the era, I was pretty shocked at the speed. Ok, they were building tees, greens and bunkers, and got rid of 6,000 trees... but still!!!


Jason Topp

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2023, 10:12:37 AM »
How could they grow grass that quickly?  We are building a second course at my club and grow in will take a year. 

Charlie Goerges

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2023, 10:15:56 AM »
Was it 4 months or a year and 4 months?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tony Ristola

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2023, 10:22:28 AM »
How could they grow grass that quickly?  We are building a second course at my club and grow in will take a year.


That was for construction (May through August), which included seeding. They expected to open the course in June 1923.


Grow-in takes 12 to 20-weeks for cool season grasses. 12 is optimistic, but I've seen it done, and the fairways had no irrigation! The club got the Royal Flush of weather.

Tony Ristola

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2023, 10:26:37 AM »
Was it 4 months or a year and 4 months?


Construction... 4-months. For 36-holes!


Who said "speed kills", but I believe Tillinghast spent a lot of time on-site. One of the Tillinghast books had a note from him, or quoted a note from him (memory is getting bad) stating (very loosely paraphrased): "I'll be on-site to sort out the modeling of the green, as usual".

Charlie Goerges

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2023, 10:55:39 AM »
Was it 4 months or a year and 4 months?


Construction... 4-months. For 36-holes!


Who said "speed kills", but I believe Tillinghast spent a lot of time on-site. One of the Tillinghast books had a note from him, or quoted a note from him (memory is getting bad) stating (very loosely paraphrased): "I'll be on-site to sort out the modeling of the green, as usual".




Yeah that sounds very fast. But to clarify, grow-in took until sometime the following year?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2023, 10:57:04 AM »
Tony,


My memory is hazy, but I think I have read that they installed 6,000 LF of clay tile for drainage, too.  That really makes the 4 months seem even more crazy.  They probably also had a system of at least a hand connected sprinkler at every green.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2023, 11:01:23 AM »
I wonder if the speed was achieved in part because oversight, permitting, approvals, staying away from water, stumbling upon a gravesite, etc....was basically non-existent back then.

Tony Ristola

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2023, 11:19:03 AM »
Tony,


My memory is hazy, but I think I have read that they installed 6,000 LF of clay tile for drainage, too.  That really makes the 4 months seem even more crazy.  They probably also had a system of at least a hand connected sprinkler at every green.


From the club:
"The number of cubic yards moved in the construction of the greens, 36,750: number of cubic yards excavated in the construction of traps, 24,500: over 6,000 large trees were blasted from fairways; 300lbs of dynamite is used daily blowing stumps, rocks and excavating trenches; more than 13,000ft. of drain pipe has been installed..."

The speed is pretty crazy. This before heavy equipment.

Augusta was built in 76-construction days!!!

Tony Ristola

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2023, 11:24:21 AM »
I wonder if the speed was achieved in part because oversight, permitting, approvals, staying away from water, stumbling upon a gravesite, etc....was basically non-existent back then.


Permitting wouldn't have anything to do with construction, except for the restrictions imposed on the routing/construction.


They weren't building USGA spec greens, but even so, 36 green-sites, fairway bunkers and tees in 4-months! Pretty impressive. And it's not like they threw down a bunch of garbage and seeded it.

Tony Ristola

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2023, 12:03:30 PM »
Was it 4 months or a year and 4 months?


Construction... 4-months. For 36-holes!


Who said "speed kills", but I believe Tillinghast spent a lot of time on-site. One of the Tillinghast books had a note from him, or quoted a note from him (memory is getting bad) stating (very loosely paraphrased): "I'll be on-site to sort out the modeling of the green, as usual".





Yeah that sounds very fast. But to clarify, grow-in took until sometime the following year?
Yes.
Construction including seeding was done in 1922.

Records show the course opened in 1923.

Ian Andrew

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2023, 10:16:25 PM »
Jasper Park was done around the same time. The land was cleared of vegetation and rocks using 50 teams of horses and 200 men. They also built a dam as part of the project for the gravity fed watering system. They had to receive the soil from the railway as part of the build and transport it to the site. It was a similar site, lots of rock and a complicated build, just fewer holes to build.

It answers the question of how you can you possibly get this done so that fast. I have a great picture from St. George's where 6 scraper teams (12 horses) are all working on the 11th green at the same time in an organized circuit. It's interesting to look at these windows into how things were done back then.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 09:34:04 PM by Ian Andrew »
Change is good.

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2023, 05:27:47 AM »
Lots of posts here saying the WF timetable seems impossible.  I remember well about 40 years ago when a few smart people created companies that offered prescription glasses in less than an hour or there would be no charge (I think "LensCrafters " was one of these companies).  Until that point in history, it usually took 4-7 days to get glasses after one's eye exam produced a hand written prescription.  These entrepreneurs looked at what it took to grind the lenses and assemble a pair of glasses and realized it was something like 20-30 minutes and appropriately made a fortune in the process.


Same  thing could be true with home building...if you could remove inspection delays, unavailability of subcontractors when they are needed, and waiting  for delivery of parts and supplies.  My guess is that the typical 3,000sq ft home could be built is less than 30 days by eliminating the above...and as a start, in the 1920's there were no "inspections" delaying the WF build out (as pointed out in an earlier post).


Before the bricks and bats start flying, I am not advocating no inspections etc etc...just pointing out that there is a very real cost to them.

Tony Ristola

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2023, 11:47:14 AM »
Lots of posts here saying the WF timetable seems impossible.  I remember well about 40 years ago when a few smart people created companies that offered prescription glasses in less than an hour or there would be no charge (I think "LensCrafters " was one of these companies).  Until that point in history, it usually took 4-7 days to get glasses after one's eye exam produced a hand written prescription.  These entrepreneurs looked at what it took to grind the lenses and assemble a pair of glasses and realized it was something like 20-30 minutes and appropriately made a fortune in the process.


Same  thing could be true with home building...if you could remove inspection delays, unavailability of subcontractors when they are needed, and waiting  for delivery of parts and supplies.  My guess is that the typical 3,000sq ft home could be built is less than 30 days by eliminating the above...and as a start, in the 1920's there were no "inspections" delaying the WF build out (as pointed out in an earlier post).


Before the bricks and bats start flying, I am not advocating no inspections etc etc...just pointing out that there is a very real cost to them.


4-months for 36-holes... is all about the horses, as Ian alluded to, and as did Napoleon when stating to his generals "we don't have the horses" to invade some part of Europe. Winged Foot... obviously had enough horses!


The problem with that speed is the quality issue. But, Tillinghast was around to direct things, so little time was wasted.

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2023, 12:35:11 AM »
Forgot an outstanding current example.  Pinehurst #10.  Owned by a company that has a lot of power in Pinehurst...and a huge desire to have it fully ready and in perfect playing condition by say April 1 2024 (about 10 weeks before #2 hosts the '24 US Open).  Am sure they got required inspections completed without having to wait long.

 Jan 4 2023 Pinehurst announced that Tom Doak was the architect...and also on that day Tom posted the following on GCA:


"We have already started clearing trees, and the intent is to have the golf course completed by September." 

So that would have meant about 10 months and I think preview rounds were being played in early Sept but am not sure on that...but certainly by early Nove
mber.
 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 12:46:38 AM by Paul Rudovsky »

Tony Ristola

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2023, 05:45:28 AM »
Forgot an outstanding current example.  Pinehurst #10.  Owned by a company that has a lot of power in Pinehurst...and a huge desire to have it fully ready and in perfect playing condition by say April 1 2024 (about 10 weeks before #2 hosts the '24 US Open).  Am sure they got required inspections completed without having to wait long.

 Jan 4 2023 Pinehurst announced that Tom Doak was the architect...and also on that day Tom posted the following on GCA:


"We have already started clearing trees, and the intent is to have the golf course completed by September." 

So that would have meant about 10 months and I think preview rounds were being played in early Sept but am not sure on that...but certainly by early Nove
mber.


10-months for 18-holes is in the “pretty standard” window… it’s half the golf with production being 2.5-times slower than Winged Foot’s 36-holes!!!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 05:47:28 AM by Tony Ristola »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2023, 01:59:38 PM »
What makes the process even more amazing is that the club switched proposed sites in April of 1922.  Starting in the Fall of 1921, NYAC was looking at a parcel closer to Wykagyl.  That contract didn't work out, and the move was made to the current site.


There were reports in mid-April of 1922 that construction work had already started, so maybe with a mid-April to mid-September timeline perhaps 5 months is a better estimate.


A 1923 report on the course construction noted they used 175 men, 18 ordinary tractors and one caterpillar tractor.  Nothing on horses.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2023, 02:07:13 PM by Sven Nilsen »
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Phil Young

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2023, 06:58:31 PM »
The following is taken from the 1923 50-page opening day magazine published by Winged Foot. It contains some amazing information about the history behind the site chosen, the number of men (and horses) used, and the actual work involved as well as the weather conditions that it was accomplished in:
      “By the early part of 1921 interest in the establishing of a golf club had been aroused to a degree that permitted immediate attention. Six months were spent in visiting properties that had been recommended to the Golf Committee. Every [size=0pt]acre[/size] of available land south of White Plains in Westchester and east of the Harlem Railroad was investigated. Many days were devoted to this investigation, for some properties were visited several times before they were finally rejected.
      “When the investigation was completed, and full data on all available properties on hand, a meeting of members of the New York Athletic Club was called. It was set for June 28, 1921, and in answer to the summons came more than a hundred golf enthusiasts. The meeting elected eleven with power to organize a golf club. With the forming of this committee real work started.
      “The property most seriously considered at that time for the establishment of Winged foot was located in New Rochelle. For a while it seemed that this location would be chosen. However when definite negotiations were begun, it was found that a clear title could not be obtained. The club’s present site was looked upon even then as probably the best of many under consideration. The stumbling block in the path of securing it was the attitude of the owners. They had a parcel of 847 acres, enough land to accommodate several golf clubs, and wanted to sell it all or none.
      “After considerable effort the firm of C. C. Lewis and Brothers was able to obtain 280 acres of the tract. The firm’s plan was to construct the 36 holes which comprise the two courses, and sell them to the club as a completed project. In May, 1922, this proposal was accepted, and a contract was signed under the terms of which C. C. Lewis and Brothers purchased the land and began construction. The services of A. W. Tillinghast, a noted golf course architect, were retained to lay out the holes. Under the supervision of John H. Elliff, the architect’s constructor, the dirt began to fly.
      “Anyone familiar with the site of Winged Foot’s courses two years ago would be hard put to recognize the land today. Thousands of trees were cut down, tons of rock were blasted from fairways and traps. Acres of swamps were drained. And all this was done under adverse conditions. So phenomenal was the rainfall during the summer of 1922 in this section of the state that not once during the construction of the course was dust raised.
      “Construction figures give an impressive idea of the enormous amount of work required in laying out the courses. There were 24,000 cubic yards of earth moved in building the greens. Seventy-two hundred tons of rock were blasted from fairways and traps. After eliminating the trees of less than six inches in diameter, the number cut down still totals 7,800. Twenty-one thousand feet of drain pipe was installed. Twenty-five thousand feet of water pipe was laid for irrigating the greens and tees. Ten and one-half tons of Kentucky Blue, Red Top and Fescue grass seed was sown in fairways and tees. Three and one-half tons of Bent, Fescue and Red Top grass seed were planted in the greens. The construction force comprised 220 men, 60 teams and 19 tractors.”

Ian Andrew

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2023, 09:13:41 PM »

Construction of 10th
Change is good.

Phil Young

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2023, 12:51:48 AM »
Ian, in my opinion it is also the earliest variation of Tilly's "Reef Hole" that can be identified.

Joe Bausch

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2023, 04:17:48 AM »
Ian, in my opinion it is also the earliest variation of Tilly's "Reef Hole" that can be identified.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Phil Young

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Re: 36-Holes at Winged Foot. How long did it take to build them?
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2023, 09:23:08 AM »
Joe, thanks for fixing that. I don't know why it does that every now and then.

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