Rollback and the Old Course

[Rob Marshall]

Michael Breed is on the air and says that the only reason the powers that be are pushing for a rollback is to protect the Old Course. Any thoughts?

[Niall C]

Rob


I've no idea who Michael Breed is but sounds like he's just trying to create a bit of noise. The fact you've posted about it and I've responded proves its worked.


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

No comment about this Breed chap but one thing I’ve said for ages is that TOC is the perfect place to measure golf ball distances in that no legal golf ball should in still air conditions be able to carry Grannie Clark’s Wynd at TOC when hit with any club from the present day Open Championship tee. This would be a measurement that has historical relevance and as technology and human physique changes just recalibrate the ball according to the same tee, roadway and carry.
Atb

[Sean_A]

No comment about this Breed chap but one thing I’ve said for ages is that TOC is the perfect place to measure golf ball distances in that no legal golf ball should in still air conditions be able to carry Grannie Clark’s Wynd at TOC when hit with any club from the present day Open Championship tee. This would be a measurement that has historical relevance and as technology and human physique changes just recalibrate the ball according to the same tee, roadway and carry.
Atb

Interesting line in the sand. Why have you chosen Granny Clark’s Wynd?


Ciao

[BHoover]

Michael Breed is sponsored by Titleist. Big surprise he would be towing the Acushnet company line.

[Rob Marshall]

He said he talked to numerous architects yesterday and they were the ones that said it was all about the Old but they would not go on the air.

[Thomas Dai]

No comment about this Breed chap but one thing I’ve said for ages is that TOC is the perfect place to measure golf ball distances in that no legal golf ball should in still air conditions be able to carry Grannie Clark’s Wynd at TOC when hit with any club from the present day Open Championship tee. This would be a measurement that has historical relevance and as technology and human physique changes just recalibrate the ball according to the same tee, roadway and carry.
Atb

Interesting line in the sand. Why have you chosen Granny Clark’s Wynd?

Ciao

Historical relevance to the Home of Golf.
Sensible (imo) max carry distance (persimmon and balata era).
Grannie Clark’s Wynd, the famous roadway across TOC, is a very visible ‘line in the sand’ reference marker.
Atb

[Tim Martin]

Michael Breed is sponsored by Titleist. Big surprise he would be towing the Acushnet company line.

He was the Head Golf Professional at Sunningdale in Westchester before making the jump to the Golf Channel.

[Tim Gavrich]

Michael Breed is on the air and says that the only reason the powers that be are pushing for a rollback is to protect the Old Course. Any thoughts?

Using The Old Course as a bellwether seems pretty sensible!


I've yet to hear a compelling argument - from Michael Breed or anyone else - as to why all the backtracks to the back tee boxes at The Old Course represent positive evolution of competitive golf. It's the simplest visual representation of what's wrong that I can think of.

[David_Tepper]

"in that no legal golf ball should in still air conditions be able to carry Grannie Clark’s Wynd at TOC when hit with any club from the present day Open Championship tee."

Didn't Jack Nicklaus drive thru the 18th green (with a 3-wood!) some 60 years ago?

[Sean_A]

No comment about this Breed chap but one thing I’ve said for ages is that TOC is the perfect place to measure golf ball distances in that no legal golf ball should in still air conditions be able to carry Grannie Clark’s Wynd at TOC when hit with any club from the present day Open Championship tee. This would be a measurement that has historical relevance and as technology and human physique changes just recalibrate the ball according to the same tee, roadway and carry.
Atb

Interesting line in the sand. Why have you chosen Granny Clark’s Wynd?

Ciao

Historical relevance to the Home of Golf.
Sensible (imo) max carry distance (persimmon and balata era).
Grannie Clark’s Wynd, the famous roadway across TOC, is a very visible ‘line in the sand’ reference marker.
Atb

So when was the first time it was carried? I am sure Jack did in 1970.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

"in that no legal golf ball should in still air conditions be able to carry Grannie Clark’s Wynd at TOC when hit with any club from the present day Open Championship tee."
Didn't Jack Nicklaus drive thru the 18th green (with a 3-wood!) some 60 years ago?

I was wondering who’d be the first to reference this, which of course has no relevance whatsoever.

Firstly, the Nicklaus shot was not hit in still air conditions! It was hit with a Driver using a 1:62” size ball, a ball size that went further than the 1:68” now under discussion. There was a gale blowing from behind and the course was playing firm. And by the way, a minute or two earlier Doug Sanders drove to the front edge of the green and he only used a half-swing!
Atb

[Sean_A]

"in that no legal golf ball should in still air conditions be able to carry Grannie Clark’s Wynd at TOC when hit with any club from the present day Open Championship tee."
Didn't Jack Nicklaus drive thru the 18th green (with a 3-wood!) some 60 years ago?

I was wondering who’d be the first to reference this, which of course has no relevance whatsoever.

Firstly, the Nicklaus shot was not hit in still air conditions! It was hit with a Driver using a 1:62” size ball, a ball size that went further than the 1:68” now under discussion. There was a gale blowing from behind and the course was playing firm. And by the way, a minute or two earlier Doug Sanders drove to the front edge of the green and he only used a half-swing!
Atb

But he used a far inferior club and ball. In any case, what is the carry?

IMO any rollback shouldn’t be aiming to absolutely set a max carry. The goal should be to reduce the advantage of modern equipment, without discouraging other means to increase distance.

The carry from the back tee must be about 275.

Ciao

[Tim_Weiman]

Michael Breed is on the air and says that the only reason the powers that be are pushing for a rollback is to protect the Old Course. Any thoughts?

Not a bad reason, if true.

[Ben Sims]

Michael Breed is on the air and says that the only reason the powers that be are pushing for a rollback is to protect the Old Course. Any thoughts?

Using The Old Course as a bellwether seems pretty sensible!


I've yet to hear a compelling argument - from Michael Breed or anyone else - as to why all the backtracks to the back tee boxes at The Old Course represent positive evolution of competitive golf. It's the simplest visual representation of what's wrong that I can think of.

I hope people don’t gloss over this post Tim. It’s smart. All these back tees on the home of golf. It’s absurd. And it’s happening all over the game, not just on TOC. The gap between pro, elite amateur and recreational golfer has never been larger. Controlling equipment for the entire game seems so obvious.

[jeffwarne]

Michael Breed is on the air and says that the only reason the powers that be are pushing for a rollback is to protect the Old Course. Any thoughts?

Not a bad reason, if true.

.
Strongly disagree.(but a Tim points out that's reason enough for me!)
For someone who worked at ANGC prior to the huge lengthening, Michael certainly has a narrow(or conflicted)view.
Michael is entitled to his opinion, but few of the courses in the world have the ability to spend 20Million plus to lengthen one hole .
Anyone as closed to golf as Michael is has to see that the SCALE of the game has changed drastically, and not just for the elites.
Interesting, it's "unnamed" architects that supposedly made that statement

[Sean_A]

The carry must be about 275, probably a bit less. If we are talking about that as the max carry it is pre 1980. I don’t see 100 or so yards being cut from the outlier long drives. Even if this were to happen, how long would it be before a huge percentage of golfers were capped at the max distance? What then? Golf would become a farce if golfers have to throttle back their physical abilities to meet a completely arbitrary limit.


Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Excellent post Tim.

I knew about the OOB tee on 17 and a few others, but it really shows how much surgery has been required to keep TOC in play for The Open.  TOC it would seem is the Joan Rivers of golf courses, decades of nips/tucks to stay relevant and in front of the cameras.

And given 18 has basically turned into a par 3 for top players, I fired up Google Earth and they could put a tee in front of 17 green in the right rough somewhere. Or even behind 1 green? 

P.S.  If they really wanted to jump the shark with dramatic effect, they could install a tee on top of the roof of the R&A golf museum across the street and add about 70 yards to #1! It would be an ode of sort to Top Golf!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

"in that no legal golf ball should in still air conditions be able to carry Grannie Clark’s Wynd at TOC when hit with any club from the present day Open Championship tee."

Didn't Jack Nicklaus drive thru the 18th green (with a 3-wood!) some 60 years ago?

Yeah. It's 250 from the Road Hole bunker. I don't know exactly where they put the 18th tee, but…

[Tom_Doak]

Anyone as closed to golf as Michael is has to see that the SCALE of the game has changed drastically, and not just for the elites.
Interesting, it's "unnamed" architects that supposedly made that statement

Yeah, he would be 0-for-2 on this thread.  I don't think Jack Nicklaus and Pete Dye were advocating a rollback years ago for the purpose of saving The Old Course, either.  It's just a nice byproduct of something that would help golf courses all around the world.


I will raise him and say that I've talked to three of the top 50 players in the world who, off the record, told me they think the equipment should be rolled back.  But they don't say so publicly because they are all on some equipment company's payroll.



Is Michael's opinion that making golf courses harder for elite players will not make them better players?  That's another way the objection to a rollback could be phrased.

[Mike_Clayton]

When Geoff Ogilvy was ranked way higher than 50 (best was #3) and talking about the ball it was made clear to him by Titleist they weren't paying him to talk about the ball.


The only one big enough to talk about it was/is Tiger. Maybe Rory - but he's not a Titleist player.

[Niall C]

No comment about this Breed chap but one thing I’ve said for ages is that TOC is the perfect place to measure golf ball distances in that no legal golf ball should in still air conditions be able to carry Grannie Clark’s Wynd at TOC when hit with any club from the present day Open Championship tee. This would be a measurement that has historical relevance and as technology and human physique changes just recalibrate the ball according to the same tee, roadway and carry.
Atb

David


Unless you're going to caveat that further by excluding long hitting players from the equation then you'd likely be talking about a pre-haskell golf ball. From google earth I calculate that the carry from the back of the tee near the back of the 17th green to the other side of the closest bit of Grannie Clark's Wynd is c.230 yards. Freddie Tait or Ted Blackwell could probably have done that with their old hickory drivers 


Niall

[Matt Schoolfield]

I heard from a unnamed source that the only reason some folks want a rollback is because they are big meanies who hate fun. I heard they limited drivers to 460cc because they didn’t like guys with bigger drivers than them. /s


But seriously… this type of unserious flame bait shouldn’t even be discussed. Strawmen are one of the last bastions of folks losing an argument. Anyone who cares about golf can take serious positions on either side of this discussion without resorting to these tactics.

[Jerry Kluger]

I called into his show yesterday and had quite a discussion with him and he lost his credibility because he said that we must protect the jobs of the guys who dive for balls as they balls would not be allowed anymore to which I responded - things happen and the jobs of 50 guys aren't going to stop the evolution of the game.  He said that baseball doesn't use aluminum bats because it would be dangerous - I explained to him that the reason is that they would have to build all new stadiums because the outfield fences wouldn't be deep enough and that would never happen as the owners would never pay for it.  He also got off on a tangent saying that removing trees from courses has made them easier as it is easier to play from rough than from behind a tree and the tree removal is just to make the fairway grasses grow better - I said that by removing trees and allowing the rough to grow makes it far more difficult as the best players might have to deal with the trees once or twice in a round but they are likely to play out of the rough 6 or 8 or even more times during a round - I told him he should ask Tom Doak or Ben Crenshaw or Andrew Green about tree removal. I also asked him if he thought Oakmont was an easier course after they removed the trees and he said it was.  I said how many courses are there that have the money to spend to buy land to make the course longer like they did at ANGC - it makes so many great courses too short for the best players to be challenged such as the hybrid - wedge, which one player hit into the 18th at Sawgrass.  I don't know if I covered everything or if the comments were in this exact order but I was driving so I wasn't able to stop and take notes. 

[Thomas Dai]

The carry from the back of the Open Championship tee on the 18th at TOC to Grannie Clark’s Wynd is by my measurement via Googleearth 235 yds, wider if the shot is played more to left.
The specific number isn’t that important.
What is important is doing whatever is necessary to make the game in general safer and use less land, water and other inputs on our finite sized, finite resourced planet, a planet with an ever increasing population.
If it takes something drastic to do this then so be it. And to me relating things in a very visible manner to the Home of Golf has merit.
However, if someone would like to propose another reference point or marker that could be used as a benchmark and has historical relevance within the game then I’d be delighted to hear their suggestion.
Atb