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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Non-bifurcated rollback
« on: November 25, 2023, 05:30:48 PM »
Golf social media has lit up the last few days about a non-bifurcated ball rollback being announced before year’s end. Taking yardage away from golfers, in my opinion, has the potential to be the biggest positive influence on golf architecture since Sand Hills.


Am I off base?

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2023, 05:53:25 PM »
I don't think a rollback is necessary (two main reasons), but given the choice between bifurcation and universal, I would choose the second.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

John Handley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2023, 05:59:26 PM »
My take is they are only looking at it from the professional level.  Tour pros may play a rolled back ball, not regular golfers.

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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2023, 06:00:47 PM »
My take is they are only looking at it from the professional level.  Tour pros may play a rolled back ball, not regular golfers.


I think that *was* the case. These new statements seems to indicate, potentially, otherwise.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2023, 06:24:23 PM »
Ben:


That's what Martin Slumbers' interview with GOLF DIGEST the other day sounded like.  There has been so many crocodile tears from the Tour about how bifurcation would be bad for the game, that they're now leaning toward just rolling back the ball for everyone.


I don't think the Tour or the manufacturers really expected that to be the next chess move.  I presume they will mount the same campaign they have used before, getting the players to tell the public that the evil governing bodies are trying to take away their big drives.


And actually, I think it's the right move.  There are a ton of young, wild swinging golfers out there today.  Making their wild ones not go so far would be a favor to everyone else on the course.  Some quarters will fret that we can't afford to lose these golfers, but nobody is drawn to golf because it's easy.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2023, 06:37:14 PM »
Ben:


That's what Martin Slumbers' interview with GOLF DIGEST the other day sounded like.  There has been so many crocodile tears from the Tour about how bifurcation would be bad for the game, that they're now leaning toward just rolling back the ball for everyone.


I don't think the Tour or the manufacturers really expected that to be the next chess move.  I presume they will mount the same campaign they have used before, getting the players to tell the public that the evil governing bodies are trying to take away their big drives.


And actually, I think it's the right move.  There are a ton of young, wild swinging golfers out there today.  Making their wild ones not go so far would be a favor to everyone else on the course.  Some quarters will fret that we can't afford to lose these golfers, but nobody is drawn to golf because it's easy.


Tom,


The GD interview you’re referring to was what set this most recent kerrfuffle in motion. I’ve said from the beginning, the decision by the USGA and R&A to change the ball for their championships (and ANGC’s quick statement that they stand with the governing bodies) was the perfect way to game this out.


This next chess move, as you say, seemed so obvious from the beginning. I don’t know why people were so insistent on the bifurcation thing to start with.


I’m one of those wild swinging mid-handicaps. It’s obvious to me that the equipment goes too far. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2023, 08:18:59 PM »
I am in disagreement for a few reasons.

Bifurcation allows golfers to rollback in their time. It gives golfers the opportunity to see if the suggested data is accurate. I have serious doubts myself.

I believe ultimately the rollback can be deeper if bifurcated because golfers are choosing to do so.

If something like 5% is mandated it is virtually meaningless. If bifurcation happens a more meaningful rollback of 10+% can be targeted because golfers are choosing to accept the rollback.

I believe that if bifurcation takes place the vast majority of golfers will volunteer to use the rollbacked ball very soon. It won’t make any difference for a large percentages of those that don’t volunteer.

All the above said, I think the rollback should affect elite players which is anybody playing professionally or in amateur events that offer world ranking points.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2023, 08:25:14 PM »
Bifurcation penalizes everyone just below the level at which the "pro ball" (or whatever) is mandated, and it breaks one of the things unique to golf: that we can directly relate to a shot or a course or whatever that a PGA Tour player plays.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2023, 11:22:14 PM »
Bifurcation penalizes everyone just below the level at which the "pro ball" (or whatever) is mandated, and it breaks one of the things unique to golf: that we can directly relate to a shot or a course or whatever that a PGA Tour player plays.
Erik,


What does “we can directly relate to a shot or a course that a PGA Tour player plays” actually mean?


I remember playing PGA West more than thirty years ago. Playing the back tees so I could “relate” to how a PGA Tour player plays wasn’t of any interest. Equally, I remember that famous shot Tiger hit out of a bunker over water (in the Canadian Open if I remember correctly).


Sure I could play the same ball as Tiger, but “relate”. No. I don’t even know what that means or what value that has.
Tim Weiman

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2023, 11:24:52 PM »
I’m not sure I have seen many (if any) students or members who would play a “shorter” ball since “tour players” had to.


I also believe as originally proposed, and given the various battles in professional golf, the tours very seriously could say they choose not to use the rule.


I too believe a rollback should be for all golf, not targeting one segment of top level



Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2023, 02:13:31 AM »
Last time there was a rollback it went: (an effective rollback with the switch from 1.62 - 1.68 - which was about 25 yards for scratch players and pros)
The Open 1974
Europe and Australian Tour (not sure about Japan and Asia) 1978
'Rest of World' amateurs 1983.
No one gave up. The game moved on just fine and with a minimum of disruption or complaints.


But now it's affecting American golfers - and manufacturers -  it's different.


The other issue no one talks about is how much easier the game is to play with modern drivers and fairway woods, hybrid long irons and the ball going 50-70 yards further (since 1980) over two shots.
It's given literally 1000s of kids a very similar skill set - bomb it and hit short irons into greens designed for mid and long irons - and they all think they are good enough to be pros.
The problem is there are way too many of them and way too few jobs.


The harder the game was to play at the top level, the more easily it'd seperate the talent levels.
Nothing did it better than a persimmon driver and a balata ball on the links at The Open.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2023, 07:52:50 AM »
Last time there was a rollback it went: (an effective rollback with the switch from 1.62 - 1.68 - which was about 25 yards for scratch players and pros)
The Open 1974
Europe and Australian Tour (not sure about Japan and Asia) 1978
'Rest of World' amateurs 1983.


Mike:


I thought the R &A's original change was for The Open and The Amateur?


That seemed to me the perfect solution, because the best amateur players slowly but surely pressured others to change with them, from the Amateur to other big events to regional events to everywhere.  And it was pretty easy, politically!


You are right that it's the American equipment companies who are affected this time, and they are using the players they sponsor to kick and scream about the evils of bifurcation.


Sean is also right that if EVERYONE has to roll back at once, the rollback will be smaller and have less impact than if they just got the elite players to do it.  But it doesn't appear that the politics are possible for that.  It's just like everything else in America, the status quo of big business must be preserved at all costs.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2023, 07:55:32 AM »
When the golf community switched from the 1:62” international ball to the US spec 1:68” not many noticed (or maybe even knew). I can’t believe that most golfers are good enough ball strikers nor savvy enough to notice this time.

And when a player tops a shot or hits one fat it won’t make any difference whether or not they’re using a current spec or a rolled-back ball.

In addition most shots during a round are usually chips, pitches & putts. I can’t envisage such shots being affected by a rollback.


And then there’s the safety and liability position with many a big strong person hitting the ball vast distances especially from the tee but never really knowing the direction it’s likely to travel. And folks are getting bigger and stronger by the generation.

Of course golf rollback isn’t just about golf. There’s a bigger picture involved.

Golf uses a lot of space on a finite sized planet with finite land and water etc resources yet with an ever increasing population who require housing, feeding, places to work etc.

As to golf’s governing bodies, I’m no fan of LIV golf but if LIV were to promote and actively engage in rolling back the ball (and maybe the Driver head) likely my interest would be piqued and I’d be significantly keener to watch or even attend one of their events.

And there’s another side to the coin. One that’s been mentioned herein before by the likes of Jeff and Mike C and I, how about a ball that goes further, yes further. One for shorter hitters, youngsters and oldsters. One aimed at introducing youngsters to the game and keeping oldsters and shorter hitters involved too.

Atb
« Last Edit: November 26, 2023, 08:05:00 AM by Thomas Dai »

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2023, 08:11:46 AM »
When the golf community switched from the 1:62” international ball to the US spec 1:68” not many noticed (or maybe even knew). I can’t believe that most golfers are good enough ball strikers nor savvy enough to notice this time.

And when a player tops a shot or hits one fat it won’t make any difference whether or not they’re using a current spec or a rolled-back ball.

In addition most shots during a round are usually chips, pitches & putts. I can’t envisage such shots being affected by a rollback.


And then there’s the safety and liability position with many a big strong person hitting the ball vast distances especially from the tee but never really knowing the direction it’s likely to travel. And folks are getting bigger and stronger by the generation.

Of course golf rollback isn’t just about golf. There’s a bigger picture involved.

Golf uses a lot of space on a finite sized planet with finite land and water etc resources yet with an ever increasing population who require housing, feeding, places to work etc.

As to golf’s governing bodies, I’m no fan of LIV golf but if LIV were to promote and actively engage in rolling back the ball (and maybe the Driver head) likely my interest would be piqued and I’d be significantly keener to watch or even attend one of their events.

And there’s another side to the coin. One that’s been mentioned herein before by the likes of Jeff and Mike C and I, how about a ball that goes further, yes further. One for shorter hitters, youngsters and oldsters. One aimed at introducing youngsters to the game and keeping oldsters and shorter hitters involved too.

Atb


Thomas-I think amateur players will definitely notice the loss of distance when it comes to driver and other full swings. I doubt many avid players will run for the exits but it will have the effect for some that they move up a set of tees or more to compensate for the loss.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2023, 08:23:53 AM »
What does “we can directly relate to a shot or a course that a PGA Tour player plays” actually mean?
It means that if you hit a shot to 2" from 164, you can say that you hit that shot better than 1000 PGA Tour players would have hit that shot in that moment. If you hit a homer in your beer league, you weren't facing Gerrit Cole, and you don't have that immediate and authentic connection. Of course there are differences in atmosphere, etc. but you're playing the same game by the same rules.

I don't know what's so hard to grasp here — sure the equipment manufacturers push this "same game, connection" stuff too much because it suits their bottom lines — but golfers appreciate and enjoy the connection too. It exists slightly in other sports, but not to the level of golf. (Individual sports with the same rules probablyhave this connection: I don't think the rules of the 100m are different at the Olympic and high school level, so if you run a really fast 100m race I imagine you can feel that connection too a bit.)

And right on cue there's Mike Clayton with a "back in my day" take.  :)

The other issue no one talks about is how much easier the game is to play with modern drivers and fairway woods, hybrid long irons and the ball going 50-70 yards further (since 1980) over two shots.It's given literally 1000s of kids a very similar skill set - bomb it and hit short irons into greens designed for mid and long irons - and they all think they are good enough to be pros.
There are a lot more people playing golf, with better instruction, and starting much earlier, with expanded competitions. So of course there are more kids hitting it farther: there are not only more kids playing golf, they're getting better information, having reasons to work harder at it, and more.

As for 70 yards… if you look at the Distance Insights report… amateurs have gotten longer, but not 70 yards over two shots longer. I'll trust data over anecdotes almost all of the time.

Sean is also right that if EVERYONE has to roll back at once, the rollback will be smaller and have less impact than if they just got the elite players to do it.  But it doesn't appear that the politics are possible for that.  It's just like everything else in America, the status quo of big business must be preserved at all costs.
While I'm not going to deny big business isn't against bifurcation for the obvious reasons, bifurcation stinks at the player level as well. It harms everyone just below whatever the cutoff is for "you must play the rolled back ball."

When the golf community switched from the 1:62” international ball to the US spec 1:68” not many noticed (or maybe even knew). I can’t believe that most golfers are good enough ball strikers nor savvy enough to notice this time.
You don't think a guy is going to notice that his 160-yard 7-iron now goes less than 150 when he hits it decent? Of course chunks will go just as far, but jeez: most golfers aren't chunking so many shots they won't notice that their good hits go 10% (or whatever) shorter. That they're hitting three clubs more into the 388-yard hole than they used to (225 / 160 becomes 200 / 185, with the 185 requiring one or two more clubs than 185 used to mean).


Like I said, if they're going to roll it back, I only had four real positions:
  • I don't think they need to base any change on 0.1% of the world's golfers.
  • That said, sustainability/resource usage was the best angle to argue it.
  • If they do roll it back, I wanted them to know exactly what the results would be. I didn't want a massive disruption to the game only to have the PGA Tour players and equipment manufacturers work around it in six months and get all the distance back. And I didn't want something like a lighter ball pushed through without considering how it would affect putting, for example.
  • I didn't want bifurcation. Roll it back for everyone if you're gonna do it.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2023, 08:29:25 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Philip Winter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2023, 08:51:44 AM »

Can someone explain the position of the manufacturers... why are they so anti-rollback? I understand that it is related to a fear of losing sales. But why would a rollback lead to selling fewer golf balls or less revenue/ball? People largely buy balls out of necessity (lost or scuffed balls).


Of all the many good points in favor of a golf ball that 'restores a better sense of scale' (i.e. "rollback"), the one that resonates the most with me is that it will help encourage golf taking less time to play (balls less off-line, and playing tees that are a bit shorter than present).


As an American who now lives in the U.K... I have come to deeply appreciate the obsession with fast play. I used to be a horrible culprit of slow American play... now I have been enlightened to the deeper joy that comes from playing at a proper swift pace.


18 holes of golf taking 4-5 hours is a detriment to its enjoyment by present golfers and a major deterrent to new players. Anything that helps golf take somewhere closer to 3 hours would be massively beneficial to all interested parties (principally the players, but also the manufacturers and golf course owners).





Golf social media has lit up the last few days about a non-bifurcated ball rollback being announced before year’s end. Taking yardage away from golfers, in my opinion, has the potential to be the biggest positive influence on golf architecture since Sand Hills.


Am I off base?




Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2023, 08:56:31 AM »
"But now it's affecting American golfers - and manufacturers -  it's different."

Seriously American golfers? Bridgestone and Srixon and Japanese companies aren't they?

I'm an American. I don't care if they do a rollback. I think it's a little late. What I don't want want is bifurcation. Like Pat said it should be for all levels of golf. One of the greatest things about golf is that we can play the same courses the pro's play majors on. Using a ball that goes longer would ruin the experience IMO.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2023, 09:26:23 AM »
I’m all for a rollback. I prefer bifurcation, but an across-the-board rollback is better than no rollback. Let’s do it and be done with it. If people don’t like it, so be it. They will get over it or they will move on to another game (and that’s fine).

As for the manufacturers, I really do not give a f*ck what they think. Titleist and other manufacturers are not the arbiters of what is or is not good for the game of golf. They are motivated by profit, not what is good for the game. They can either choose to manufacture equipment that complies with the rules promulgated by the governing bodies or they can be replaced by others who will.

And I will gladly stand on the same side of the issue as Mike Clayton. Golf would be vastly improved if we had more voices like his in the game.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2023, 09:29:00 AM »
Does your view on ball rollback change if the following were true


1) horizontal dispersion with modern technology is actually lower than pre-2000 technology, i.e., we aren’t as far offline as we used to be 


2) playing a notional course at 6500 yds vs 6000 yds changes pace of play by only 5.5 minutes over a 4 hour round.


3) USGA distance insight report says avg driving distance is stagnant at around 225yds for all players


4) avg 18-hole golf course footprint actually decreased since 2008


Does any of that change your outlook.?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2023, 09:34:01 AM by Ben Sims »

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2023, 09:33:15 AM »
Count me in favor of a non-bifurcated rollback that will impact the longest players more in actual yardage than weaker players by a similar percentage overall.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2023, 09:38:46 AM »
Can someone explain the position of the manufacturers... why are they so anti-rollback? I understand that it is related to a fear of losing sales. But why would a rollback lead to selling fewer golf balls or less revenue/ball? People largely buy balls out of necessity (lost or scuffed balls).
If they can't market "this is the ball the pros play!" they fear their sales will dip. I imagine if you're someone like Snell or Vice or something, you kinda hope for this, but the major manufacturers spend a lot of money on Tour players (who also want to continue to be paid tee-up money and NIL/promotional money).

balls less off-line
That's not really a thing. You can look at the robot testing in the distance insights report on this.


18 holes of golf taking 4-5 hours is a detriment to its enjoyment by present golfers and a major deterrent to new players. Anything that helps golf take somewhere closer to 3 hours would be massively beneficial to all interested parties (principally the players, but also the manufacturers and golf course owners).

A lot of that is course setup, and then player behavior a distant second. Balls going shorter isn't going to change either of those things.

1) horizontal dispersion with modern technology is actually lower than pre-2000 technology, i.e., we aren’t as far offline as we used to be  2) playing a notional course at 6500 yds vs 6000 yds changes pace of play by only 5.5 minutes over a 4 hour round. 3) USGA distance insight report says avg driving distance is stagnant at around 225yds for all players4) avg 18-hole golf course footprint actually decreased since 2008
Bingo. Lots of anecdata in topics like these, very few actual facts typically discussed.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2023, 10:03:09 AM »
Erik,


I want to be very clear, I was told and later shown that what I wrote above is true. That said, it causes me to arrive to a different conclusion. I am all for a non-bifurcated rollback. Play it forward was, for the most part, not impactful. A rollback of the ball will do what play it forward couldn’t.


The other thing is this. I don’t really care a *ton* about data. The USGA and R&A should by and large try to use proper data to support their conclusions. They have a dubious record doing so. But frankly I don’t care all that much. Preference plays a large role in how I view this debate. My preference is that golf moves away from the power game I currently play.


Bottom line, it’s not my job to agree or disagree. I’m going to play either way. My opinion is that golf is better when played at shorter distances with a ball that’s harder to make do what you want it to do.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2023, 10:33:09 AM by Ben Sims »

Philip Winter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2023, 10:22:14 AM »

Erik-
All interesting points. Thanks for replying and sharing the data.


Regarding the ball sales. If it's a rollback for all players (pros and ams) then manufacturers can still sell the same balls the pros play to amateurs, right?



Can someone explain the position of the manufacturers... why are they so anti-rollback? I understand that it is related to a fear of losing sales. But why would a rollback lead to selling fewer golf balls or less revenue/ball? People largely buy balls out of necessity (lost or scuffed balls).
If they can't market "this is the ball the pros play!" they fear their sales will dip. I imagine if you're someone like Snell or Vice or something, you kinda hope for this, but the major manufacturers spend a lot of money on Tour players (who also want to continue to be paid tee-up money and NIL/promotional money).

balls less off-line
That's not really a thing. You can look at the robot testing in the distance insights report on this.


18 holes of golf taking 4-5 hours is a detriment to its enjoyment by present golfers and a major deterrent to new players. Anything that helps golf take somewhere closer to 3 hours would be massively beneficial to all interested parties (principally the players, but also the manufacturers and golf course owners).

A lot of that is course setup, and then player behavior a distant second. Balls going shorter isn't going to change either of those things.

1) horizontal dispersion with modern technology is actually lower than pre-2000 technology, i.e., we aren’t as far offline as we used to be  2) playing a notional course at 6500 yds vs 6000 yds changes pace of play by only 5.5 minutes over a 4 hour round. 3) USGA distance insight report says avg driving distance is stagnant at around 225yds for all players4) avg 18-hole golf course footprint actually decreased since 2008
Bingo. Lots of anecdata in topics like these, very few actual facts typically discussed.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2023, 11:08:41 AM »
Sean is spot on as usual here.

In many ways the simple reality is the game already is bifurcated in nearly every way when it comes to Pros and everyone else. Make the pros use a new ball and the sheep will follow suit

P.S.  The only time I ever come close to relating to the Pros is making a 5 foot putt under pressure with a bet with my buddies.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-bifurcated rollback
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2023, 11:16:45 AM »
Sean is spot on as usual here.

In many ways the simple reality is the game already is bifurcated in nearly every way when it comes to Pros and everyone else. Make the pros use a new ball and the sheep will follow suit

P.S.  The only time I ever come close to relating to the Pros is making a 5 foot putt under pressure with a bet with my buddies.


Give the “sheep” their choice and I think you would be surprised how many would pick the ball that goes farther.