Scarlet vs. Scioto

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Back in August (2023) I had the pleasure of playing the Scarlet Course at OSU one day and Scioto the next day.


Though the conditioning of Scioto was unquestionably better, I feel I enjoyed the round at the Scarlet Course more. I felt the movement of the course across the land, the doglegs and variety of shots required, and the green sites were slightly better.


Am I alone in this? Admittedly I only played them once each, and I wasn't entirely focused on the architecture at the time as one round was with a friend and the other was with my daughter.

[Matthew Lloyd]

Erik - as somebody that grew up playing Scioto and OSU Scarlet I'm thrilled to hear you were able to play both courses back to back as in many ways the courses represent a nice study in contrasts - despite being separated by merely 3.5 miles.


*** I'd love to hear what your favorite holes/shots were on each course ***



Having played both 100+ times it's surprising that I don't really have a preference between the two - I love both!  But I do have several thoughts to share, listed in no particular order:


(apologies for the length of the post but these courses don't get discussed too much on this site)


1. I definitely feel that OSU Scarlet is the more difficult course. It can be as long as anyone wants it to be; and the fairway bunkers are deep and punitive - especially after the Nicklaus renovation. Both courses can have punitive rough as well; with continued tree removal at Scioto over the years Scarlet also offers more "tree trouble."  I've broken 80 at Scioto a handful of times. I've never threatened to break 80 at Scarlet. (not that my game is a gauge for difficulty for a better player)


2. Scioto post restoration is even more fun to play (for all skill levels too). If you thought Scarlet had more variety in holes you REALLY would have felt that way before the restoration. Scioto par 4s tended to all be straight and difficult with bunkers bracketing uphill greens. They were great and tough golf holes - but a little repetitive from a design standpoint.


3. Scarlet still features many more doglegs as you mentioned - but now the Scioto par 4s have more personality and variance. Number 3 - with the bunker directly in front of the green - is one of the big improvements. Also love the new green complex at 5; and the centerline bunker on 7 is new. Assuming you played #8 as a par 5 - that hole has undergone many changes over the years; I'm confident the current version is the best one. Fairway bunkers on #13 and #16 have spiced up those holes a bit as well.


4. As you mentioned, the Scarlet doglegs are great! #3 is a tricky tee shot; #7 was always a great hole (and I miss the "Block O" bunker) but it's even better now. #11 is maybe the best hole on the course? #14 I'd call a dogleg - though a gentle long one. #16 is incredibly fun to play, with a wide variety of outcomes in the Korn Ferry event.  The only dogleg on the course that I find sort of boring is #18 - but that's a minor quibble.


5. Scarlet from #9 to #16 is my favorite stretch on the course - with particular emphasis on #10 to #14.


6. When it comes to the green sites I'm admittedly heavily biased in favor of Scioto - especially the new greens. Scarlet's greens are so massive that I end up three putting all day. Though that is obviously my problem, not the course's. Hahaha. Favorite greens on Scarlet for me are #2, #7, #9, #10, #14, #15. 


7. I can't talk about the horrid changes made to #4 -- once maybe the most enjoyable hole on the course; now it's absolute torture. And not just because of the difficulty. It's visually unappealing and doesn't mesh with the overall aesthetics of the course.


8. I much prefer the par 3s at Scioto - they have more personality and variety. Scarlet features one long iron after another. The new #17 at Scioto is really, really fun on repeat rounds as you dial in club selection.


9. Would you agree that Scarlet feels like a prime candidate for a restoration?  Really wish they'd turn back the clock a bit on the design, along with some tree removal. The conditioning, as you noted, is not at Scioto's level but with the volume of play that course gets that is probably impossible.


10. Did you play Scioto before the restoration? Or just the "new" version?  The holes that I think benefitted the most from the restoration are #3, #5, #6, #8, #9, #14 and #17.


If I had to divide 10 rounds I'd go with 5 on each. I'm the least objective person possible on this subject since they're the two "home" courses from my youth - but so glad you were able to play them back to back as I mentioned. Both have great history.


To further validate Scarlet, here is a sampling of players that have either won or finished runner-up at the Korn Ferry event played there each August:


Scottie Scheffler (winner)
Cameron Smith (runner-up)
Justin Thomas (winner)
Harris English (winner)
Rickie Fowler (runner-up)


More notable names can be found - but that's a good start. And a good indication of what a solid test of golf Scarlet represents.


I probably ended up promoting Scarlet more than Scioto in this response, which was not really my intention, but I feel like Scarlet has become underrated in recent years and doesn't get the same level of attention as the other top courses in Columbus, which are all great of course.


Scarlet with a creative restoration would be as strong as any course in Ohio in my opinion.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Matthew, I wanted to say thanks, and that I will get back to this. I appreciate the longer response, I just want to find the time to give it some justice.


In the meantime, if anyone else has any thoughts, thinks I'm crazy, whatever… let me know.

[JLahrman]

3. Scarlet still features many more doglegs as you mentioned - but now the Scioto par 4s have more personality and variance. Number 3 - with the bunker directly in front of the green - is one of the big improvements. Also love the new green complex at 5; and the centerline bunker on 7 is new. Assuming you played #8 as a par 5 - that hole has undergone many changes over the years; I'm confident the current version is the best one. Fairway bunkers on #13 and #16 have spiced up those holes a bit as well.

I'd be interested in thoughts on #5 Scioto. I haven't played the course since the 1990s, but I never cared much for that hole. Downhill tee shot, and you had to lay up short of the creek. Both sides of the fairway bank your ball back towards the center, which to me made the tee shot even less interesting. Then you had to hit a pretty long iron up the hill to a green that didn't really want to receive it.

However, everyone else seemed to think it was one of the better holes so maybe I was missing something. And perhaps the hole has been changed in the 25ish years since I've played it.


The overheads of the Scioto on Google Earth look fantastic!

[JLahrman]

Though the conditioning of Scioto was unquestionably better, I feel I enjoyed the round at the Scarlet Course more. I felt the movement of the course across the land, the doglegs and variety of shots required, and the green sites were slightly better.

I've played both courses a bunch, though not in 20+ years and not nearly as frequently or as recently as Matt, but I think that's a completely reasonable takeaway.


I never really thought of Scarlet as the harder course, however I do think that it can be made to play more difficult than Scioto. I remember playing Scarlet a few days before they hosted a sectional US Open qualifier. I was down around a 5 handicap in those days so I would play the back tees without a second thought. The course was firm, the greens were rolling, and they must have been testing out some of the pin positions they were planning to use for the qualifier. I played well but the course absolutely spanked me. I couldn't believe how hard they'd been able to make it.


But Scarlet did have, I thought, more interesting land (not to mention more of it) than Scioto. Again this is 25 years ago but I thought the holes at Scarlet had more personality - I loved the little dogleg #3, not sure what they did to #4 but it was fun when I used to play it. 10 and 11 were really good, difficult but fun par 4s. 12 was really fun if you hit a good enough tee shot to go for it in two. Same with 14, and I liked 15 heading back into the corner of the property. 7 had the O bunker, didn't 15 have a U bunker? Was there an S?


Anyway, I do have a soft spot for Scioto but as Matt said the design was more repetitive pre-renovation. And felt more hemmed in by trees (though now it sounds like Scarlet is more heavily treed in by comparison).

[Michael George]

Both courses are incredibly overrated.   

Nicklaus trying to restore a MacKenzie was one of the worst ideas in golf course architecture.  The place has a nice property but has very little visual appeal and Nicklaus' attempt at creating MacKenzie bunkers is just awful. 

Scioto has always been overrated to me and it remains so after Andrew Green's work, as he just didn't move the needle.  Sure, the course is polished up and the green complexes are better (as you no longer have to carry the pressed-in bunkers that Nicklaus put in to try and get the US Open).  However, it still isn't one of Ross' best courses.  In fact, it isn't even better than the Ross course up the road, Canton Brookside.   

I have never really understood Andrew Green's opinion on Ross bunkers.   Donald Ross spent much of his life on 2 golf courses - first, Royal Dornoch and later, Pinehurst - which both had a very different style of bunkering than many of his courses.   Ross was limited with the equipment in his age and he was designing so many courses that he often wrote out the plans and left much of the construction to others.  If Ross was designing courses with today's equipment and was onsite more often overseeing the progress, isn't it fair to ask if he would have used more natural looking bunkers?  It is why I like Coore Crenshaw's work restoring Ross courses a lot more than Andrew Green's.

Regardless, while Columbus gets a lot of attention in the rankings, I think the golf is considerably better in northeast Ohio.  The Country Club at Pepper Pike, Kirtland, Canterbury, The Pepper Pike Club, Canton Brookside and Sharon (post David Zinkand renovation) are all better than Scioto or Scarlett. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I'd be interested in thoughts on #5 Scioto. I haven't played the course since the 1990s, but I never cared much for that hole. Downhill tee shot, and you had to lay up short of the creek…

Withdrawn. The approach is about 180 slightly uphill.

In fact, it isn't even better than the Ross course up the road, Canton Brookside.

IMO Brookside needs some work. I played the Fried Egg event there and, while the bones are quite solid, the greens are simply too sloped for modern green speeds. Some holes had barely one hole location, and even that one had about five feet in all directions that were usable.

[Cal Carlisle]

It's #5. You only show the tee boxes and the beginning of the fairway for #5. The green on the bottom right is the par 5 6th.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

It's #5. You only show the tee boxes and the beginning of the fairway for #5. The green on the bottom right is the par 5 6th.

You're right, I got mixed around in looking at the aerial. I apologize for the detour.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

*** I'd love to hear what your favorite holes/shots were on each course ***

Tough question. I only played them once each, so I'm really reluctant to name them. Given that caveat, I liked… at OSU: 2, 4, 12, 16. At Scioto, 7, 13, 15. 13 might seem like an odd choice, but I liked how long that left side bunker all the way to the fairway without any rough, etc. Other holes have similar cuts, but this bunker is 60 yards long.

with continued tree removal at Scioto over the years Scarlet also offers more "tree trouble."

Scarlet, except on some holes like 15/16, could stand to lose a few hundred trees. Many are fairly out of the way (and some separate the Scarlet from the Grey), but… I feel like they could open up some more vistas without really affecting play much. #6, for example, could lose a lot of trees. #3 down the right side.

Scioto par 4s tended to all be straight and difficult with bunkers bracketing uphill greens. They were great and tough golf holes - but a little repetitive from a design standpoint.

Good to know. I might scroll back in time on Google Earth to see what it used to be like.

and the centerline bunker on 7 is new.

I like it. The guy we were playing with said "I hit driver here and I've never reached that bunker." My tee shot stopped six inches short of it, and the other guy in the group rolled a foot into it. 

Assuming you played #8 as a par 5 - that hole has undergone many changes over the years;

Yes, a par five… reachable with a 3I or 4I.

#16 is incredibly fun to play, with a wide variety of outcomes in the Korn Ferry event.  The only dogleg on the course that I find sort of boring is #18 - but that's a minor quibble.

16 I enjoyed a lot. 18 I hit it by the building way left. Took off a lot of distance, though, from the approach.

5. Scarlet from #9 to #16 is my favorite stretch on the course - with particular emphasis on #10 to #14.

No argument from me.

6. When it comes to the green sites I'm admittedly heavily biased in favor of Scioto - especially the new greens. Scarlet's greens are so massive that I end up three putting all day. Though that is obviously my problem, not the course's. Hahaha. Favorite greens on Scarlet for me are #2, #7, #9, #10, #14, #15.

I found more variety at Scarlet, not only of the shapes and sizes (Scioto has a little bit of the "geometric" thing going on, like a quasi-Raynor type green with many square fronts, which is not a penalty in my scoring system), but with different internal contours. For example, the big ridge on the second hole is really good.

8. I much prefer the par 3s at Scioto - they have more personality and variety.

Agreed. Though I think I hit three clubs around an 8I at Scarlet (on 5, 8, and 13).

9. Would you agree that Scarlet feels like a prime candidate for a restoration?  Really wish they'd turn back the clock a bit on the design, along with some tree removal.

I think it felt pretty solid. I could see adding some interest to the fairway lines, mowing the fairways out to the bunkers more, and… removing trees, for sure.

10. Did you play Scioto before the restoration? Or just the "new" version?

August 2023. Post renovation. First and only time so far.


Thank you, Matthew.