There are dumb questions

[mike_beene]

After a large block of our membership is presented an amazingly beautiful and informative presentation on a vision for our property the questions are not too loaded. Then a minority of divisive members start attempting shanigans. Some quotes: Andrew Green is no Ralph Plummer
Inverness is a dog track.
Royal Melbourne sucks I bet he did it.Green is a fraud without credentials or training. We are murderers running out the entitled elite.
What happened to leaving something better than you got it.I now hope we see 100 members quit. Is it always this nasty? If fraud is alleged I think you better bring proof and name names.
Advice welcome.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have been through a couple of renovations to the course and clubhouse and have never encountered what you described. Unless you really feel a need to counter them, I'd leave them alone. You won't change their minds.

[mike_beene]

Tommy: excellent and freeing advice. Thanks!

[John Kavanaugh]

If you love your wife and she is 20lbs overweight you don’t send her to fat camp for a year. You need to find a way for your disgruntled member not to miss her while she’s gone.

[A.G._Crockett]

There is a certain portion of the membership at any organization (church, clubs, etc.) that are chronic complainers.
There is a certain portion of the membership at any organization that is looking for an excuse to move on anyway.
There is a certain portion of the membership at a private club that just flat out doesn't want to pay an assessment, and/or have the club temporarily disrupted by construction.
There is a certain portion of the membership at any private club that simply can't see (or won't accept) that in order for the club to survive and prosper, change has to happen, and in ways that might not really be part of what they value at the club.

Your club will likely lose 5-10% of the membership if there is a major project undertaken with an assessment involved. It is very likely in today's market that the loss will be quickly offset by the addition of new members who see the club as forward thinking and a good place to be for years to come.  And the new members will likely be paying higher initiations and dues as well; the initiation money typically goes into the capital fund, and the dues are the primary funding for the operating budget.  So temporary shortfall in the operating budget, but a long-term gain both for that budget and the capital fund.
Don't worry about them; they'll never be missed if they leave.

[Ben Sims]

Some weeks ago I received an invitation for a members survey for my overseas membership in the UK. I clicked on the link and holy smokes, the survey was quite detailed. Within days the survey had ended and the club sent an email with the  results.


I thought this an elegant solution to the issue at clubs where the complainers have an outsized influence. When someone says “why didn’t we fix X?” The club administration can point to the survey and say “here’s the top four things the membership wanted to spend money on and change/fix this season.”

[mike_beene]

We had a pretty detailed survey a year ago. Also, we have a long waiting list, perhaps 10 or so years, so letting the disgruntled move on is becoming very attractive. First world problems..

[Rob Marshall]

What’s the issue? They don’t want to spend the money? Big assessment? Afraid of making major changes?

[mike_beene]

Rob: It’s hard to say what the issue is. My perception as a 63 year old is most of the opposition is my age or older. I think it is for a few the loss of control as younger people take over the process. The speeches I am getting get extremely personal. I have stayed away from club committees over the years, wanting the club to be a place of escape. So it seems I should lean toward those we elected. And give them credit for retaining a quality architect. Maybe this is simply the sad and frustrating side of aging.What happened to planting a tree— bad analogy—you won’t sit under? I will quit filling space with this. Hopefully the cooler heads prevail. The proposal is breathtaking.

[Sam Morrow]

After a large block of our membership is presented an amazingly beautiful and informative presentation on a vision for our property the questions are not too loaded. Then a minority of divisive members start attempting shanigans. Some quotes: Andrew Green is no Ralph Plummer
Inverness is a dog track.
Royal Melbourne sucks I bet he did it.Green is a fraud without credentials are training. We are murders running out the entitled elite.
What happened to leaving something better than you got it.I now hope we see 100 members quit. Is it always this nasty? If fraud is alleged I think you better bring proof and name names.
Advice welcome.

When did yall do your last renovation? Sounds like Green might be getting busy down here.

[Thomas Dai]

History suggests that the leadership of any organisation isn't always right and that courageous folk are needed to challenge and hold them to account often to their personal detriment.
History also suggests that surveys (ie voting) are often manipulated by the leadership to suit their own preferred outcome.
In saying this things don't have to be nasty although as disputes escalate nastiness and bitterness does tend to develop.
Just saying.
atb

[mike_beene]

Sam: Last renovation was 2014. But other than moving a few greens then it is my understanding that our greens are at the end of life. My guess is we will vote in spring so it is a couple of years away. Routing and many other changes. The presentation to the membership was beautifully done. No numbers presented yet.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Tom Doak once told me when we toured Lehigh CC together years ago (maybe he will remember this because it always stuck with me), “if I can get 70% of the membership happy and to agree with me, I did really well.”  Some you will just never convert or make happy or change their minds no matter what you tell them. They don’t want to hear or see anything different regardless of truth or facts or what is right or wrong or better for the golf course.  What I try to do with that group is do my best to get them to be at least neutral and not as vocal and disruptive of the process for everyone else. But remember you can’t try to alienate or embarrass them as they might only get worse and more vocal (sadly we see that in politics today).  Clubs are no different and club politics are the hardest part of golf course restoration/renovation work.  When all said and done, the architect usually takes the blame or gets the praise for the work that is completed but most of that is a function of how well they handled the internal politics. 

[John Kavanaugh]

History suggests that the leadership of any organisation isn't always right and that courageous folk are needed to challenge and hold them to account often to their personal detriment.
History also suggests that surveys (ie voting) are often manipulated by the leadership to suit their own preferred outcome.
In saying this things don't have to be nasty although as disputes escalate nastiness and bitterness does tend to develop.
Just saying.
atb

Genius. The Tour cloaks itself in charity to the point that if you raise your voice in opposition you look anti-charity. No one really wants a Korn Ferry event.

[Niall C]

I find it interesting that the ones in favour of the status quo are the ones that are being portrayed as being disgruntled. Common sense suggests it would be the other way about, even if those wanting things to remain the same put forward nonsense arguments to support their case.


Whatever the truth of that, Mike's club appears to me to be successful considering it has a full membership, a waiting list to join, and presumably enough ordinary income to pay the bills. What then is the driver for the change ?


Niall

[A.G._Crockett]

I find it interesting that the ones in favour of the status quo are the ones that are being portrayed as being disgruntled. Common sense suggests it would be the other way about, even if those wanting things to remain the same put forward nonsense arguments to support their case.


Whatever the truth of that, Mike's club appears to me to be successful considering it has a full membership, a waiting list to join, and presumably enough ordinary income to pay the bills. What then is the driver for the change ?


Niall

I don’t think Mike has really outlined in detail what the project involves, other than that there will be some golf course work done.  Perhaps there is more?


At my club, following a lengthy process icluding a survey, town hall meetings, and a member vote, we are beginning a capital project that will last for the next 18 months.  We start a bunker renovation process in two weeks, installing capillary concrete.  Next year, we will be building 4 dedicated pickleball courts as soon as the permitting is complete, and then the pool will shut down just after July 4th to build a new pool and pool house, replacing the currently facility, which is original (1966).  The club is financially healthy and the membership is nearly full, but projects like this have to be done from time to time, just as you have to put a new roof on your house, or paint it, or replace appliances, etc.


There was a $4500 assessment for the project, and we did lose some members, as we knew we would.  The consultants we are working with estimated we’d lose 5-10% (gratefully, it was less than that) BUT they also estimate that we will see a net gain in memberships as young families see the work being done and are attracted by a better pool facility, etc.  In fact, that seems to already be happening, and we’ve almost completely replace the members who left.


Just as with Mike’s club, most of the complaints and resignations came from older members (fwiw, I’m 71) and some of them were already on the fence about keeping their memberships.  Clubs have to continually attract new, younger members, and up-to-date facilities is one of the main ways that happens.  And that costs money; it just does.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Maybe OT, but this reminds me of the great old Jay Morrish story about some members of a club rejecting all his ideas.  Finally, a member stands up and says, "That S.O.B. slept with my wife, so if he is for it, I am against it!"    

[mike_beene]

Jeff, that reminds me of one of the few things I learned during my lobbying days: people generally vote against a candidate instead of for the one whose name they picked.
In answer to other questions, this would be a very big change with some hole changes and routing changes on our very small property. As an aside, it might be healthy to have some turnover.With club full we may miss a generation of new members. I know our greens are overdue and adding cooling underneath in our climate makes sense. We cross a road between holes 4 times and future security is one issue. The problem is that changing one hole makes for a domino effect due to 110 or so acres. But the course is very good now so it will be interesting. What started this was my frustration with the nasty and emotional pleas. It is difficult to keep from fighting for the heck of it. Human nature I guess. At least this exercise has helped me think through it and see both sides. A lot of wise and good counsel, my friends.

[jeffwarne]

On the other hand....and no dog in the fight....


Let's say you're 70 years old and you've been a member for 40 years and LOVE your course.
The renovation is going to close the course for a year(roughly 10% of your remaining golf life)
And it's going to cost you $4500-then someone tells you if you don't like it-quit.


Now let's up the ante and say it's the third renovation at your course since 2004, and you've disliked, or at best been neutral to each and every outcome(that's not uncommon).


There are two sides(at least) to every discussion, and I'd say more than a few awful redesign/renovations should never have been undertaken.



There are many prior renovations where MORE questions SHOULD have been asked.
Hence the need for so many "restorations".

[mike_beene]

Another great point, Jeff. It is easier to see both sides when it doesn’t start emotionally. It’s tough to be a mature adult some days.

[Rob Marshall]

On the other hand....and no dog in the fight....


Let's say you're 70 years old and you've been a member for 40 years and LOVE your course.
The renovation is going to close the course for a year(roughly 10% of your remaining golf life)
And it's going to cost you $4500-then someone tells you if you don't like it-quit.


Now let's up the ante and say it's the third renovation at your course since 2004, and you've disliked, or at best been neutral to each and every outcome(that's not uncommon).


There are two sides(at least) to every discussion, and I'd say more than a few awful redesign/renovations should never have been undertaken.


Hence the need for so many "restorations".
There are many prior renovations where MORE questions SHOULD have been asked.

I was all for our renovation. Loved it when it was complete. The more I played it, the more I disliked the style of bunkers and their placement. Then I remembered what the architect said…..” the changes are to enhance the experience of ALL levels of players”. That’s really what’s it’s all about. All the members….

[Tom_Doak]

On the other hand....and no dog in the fight....


Let's say you're 70 years old and you've been a member for 40 years and LOVE your course.
The renovation is going to close the course for a year(roughly 10% of your remaining golf life)
And it's going to cost you $4500-then someone tells you if you don't like it-quit.

This is the biggest factor that hadn’t been mentioned previously.  20% of the members are in this position and they are all “no”s because IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE FROM THEIR PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE.


The vote at Bel Air (which was the most divisive project I’ve done) was 64-36.  Once we started, several different members came up to me in the clubhouse and told me they had voted no, but they really were just anti-change, and now that they saw what we were doing they were 100% on board and were sorry if they had caused us any trouble.


There are lots of one-issue voters in politics.  In club politics, a one-issue voter is a No.  you can’t take it personally like they do.

[mike_beene]

What is relevant about the Bel-Air vote is that we have a proposed bylaw amendment to require any significant expenditure to require a super majority. This is a move from the anti crowd. Half our members never vote on anything so both sides assume or claim that people are somehow denied the right to vote and you don’t want 51 members to decide the future —I guess 67 is OK. If the math is wrong remember I am hampered by my Big 12 education.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,  Some questions that seem dumb may not be that dumb.  Remember the "game" of golf has created the "business" of golf and the business end has taken over.  These so called consultants know how to set a survey.  They also know that private clubs run by boards are the most inefficient segment of the business and they feed off of it.  The boards often do not accept that they don't know what they don't know.  It's funny how expensive rework became once new worked slowed.  Recently there is always a new concept to increase pricing...be it concrete in bunkers or gravel in bunkers or heated greens.  I'm betting sand capped fairways are next. 
If Ralph Plummer was the original archie and the club liked what he had given them then my one question would be " who would Ralph want fixing his course?"

[Don Mahaffey]

Having been threw this a few times as a part of the “pro” group because we would have a part in the work..,I’ve learned it’s almost always about losing the golf course for a year.  The problem is, somewhere in this whole renovation craze it became the norm to demo, build, and grow-in in a year.  It’s not a year.  It takes a year for the turf conditions to go from playable to good after grow in. And, when you have to perform a major project in one year, there is almost always something that you have to come back and change.  But the pro group will promise the con group that it will only be a year, then write some insane specifications that force the builders to muster an army and the designers to make quick and fast decisions.  The result, dozens of real clean, flowing renovations that photo well but lack quirk or character because it has to be an assembly line process.
If you have to renovate your course, do it. But treat it like a once in a generation process and take the time to get it right so it doesn’t become a once a decade event,