Old Barnwell - Golf Course Discussion

[Tom Mills]

Barnwell is just great! For those interested in the thoughts of Nick, Brian and Blake, we are releasing two podcasts within the next week. One with Nick on the creation and philosophy behind the club, and one with Brian and Blake about the design philosophies. They should provide some great insight to those who are interested!


Tom Mills
Cookie Jar Golf

[Robert Kimball]

 I agree with Matt Gunther: Overall, I left going "I cannot wait to get back here." In addition, the atmosphere -- even in the temporary clubhouse -- was great. I look forward to seeing others' comments who have a more keen eye than I, but for me it is a great experience.
[/size][/color]
[/size]I played in the Fried Egg event back in Nov. and got there a day early to play an extra round.  There is not much more I can add to the discussion other than it really left an impression on me.  What a fantastic course, place, and atmosphere. [/color]

[/size]Some holes I just laughed at the expansive size of the fairways!  BUT, you need to make sure you are in the right place to set up the proper second shot.  The term "second-shot golf course" was used a lot. [/color]

[/size]11 is cool as hell.  You think there is tons of room, but you don't want to go anywhere to the left of center - the hidden fairway bunkers await.  I thought I had sliced my drive there - be honest, I did actually silce it! -- and was told, "No that's going to be fine over on the right side." [/color]

[/size]I would play there again if given the opportunity even with just a day's notice. It's that special.  Lotta good stuff down in that area of SC, and I am about 2 hours away in Charlotte.  [/color]

[/size]That YouTube video is a great example of the vastness of the property, and there is a great write up online (Fried Egg, etc). [/color]

[/size]Blake, you and Brian have a masterpiece there, and it's only getting better from what I understand!  [/color]

[/size]Cheers, Rob  [/color]

[Kalen Braley]

<Cleaned up Rob's post>

 I agree with Matt Gunther: Overall, I left going "I cannot wait to get back here." In addition, the atmosphere -- even in the temporary clubhouse -- was great. I look forward to seeing others' comments who have a more keen eye than I, but for me it is a great experience.

I played in the Fried Egg event back in Nov. and got there a day early to play an extra round.  There is not much more I can add to the discussion other than it really left an impression on me.  What a fantastic course, place, and atmosphere.
Some holes I just laughed at the expansive size of the fairways!  BUT, you need to make sure you are in the right place to set up the proper second shot.  The term "second-shot golf course" was used a lot.

11 is cool as hell.  You think there is tons of room, but you don't want to go anywhere to the left of center - the hidden fairway bunkers await.  I thought I had sliced my drive there - be honest, I did actually silce it! -- and was told, "No that's going to be fine over on the right side."

I would play there again if given the opportunity even with just a day's notice. It's that special.  Lotta good stuff down in that area of SC, and I am about 2 hours away in Charlotte. 

That YouTube video is a great example of the vastness of the property, and there is a great write up online (Fried Egg, etc).

Blake, you and Brian have a masterpiece there, and it's only getting better from what I understand!

Cheers, Rob

[Ben Sims]

Rob,


Just to clarify about 11, I think you meant 10.


Perhaps as much as any course I’ve played, a first time player will be constantly surprised by results and reveals around the course. That’s usually a trait reserved for courses in dunescape. Blake and Brian seem to have paid a lot of attention to viewpoints to make sure their ideas for hiding features/ground were realized.

[Paul Rudovsky]

I had the fabulous opportunity to play it one time in January and simply LOVED it.  Agree with about 95 % of the above comments and the ones I am note sure about are probably due to gaps in my memory after just one round.  But in the big picture, I was most impressed by the subtlety of the design and how different and camouflaged most design elements are from the tee.  The green angles create the requirement to hit your tee shots to very specific points on huge fairways...or be faced with head scratching positions on there fairways. 


Simply impossible to play well (I think) without a bunch prior rounds, full course walking tours, and/or superb caddy.  In that way the course reminded me in many ways of Lido and TOC.  Really a thinking person's course...just like Lido and TOC.  And great to see that part of the game being emphasized by Lido and Old Barnwell.  Brought to mind comparisons of Hogan and Snead I had heard thru the years and thought about what Snead would have shot at Lido and Old Barnwell in two rounds at each...one with his regular caddy and the other with Hogan caddying for him!


Also agree 120% with above comments regarding the atmosphere in the temp clubhouse.  Talked for as good 30 minutes with Nick after my round and wished I could have stayed longer...and if I could defeat the undefeated Old Man Time would have joined on the spot.  This place is one of the great examples of what "golf was supposed to be..." 


Other than the above nothing nice to say about it   


 

[Tim_Weiman]

Paul,


Hope you can visit for a couple days in March. I would actually love to first walk the the course with you before playing it a few times.


Tim

[Michael Chadwick]

Adding some photos of each hole. I think this course deserves to be talked about much more.


1


1 green


2


3


3 green


4


5


5 green


6


6 green's knob (St. Andrews 4 homage?)


6 green


7


8 (shades of Ballyneal 7 with Crystal Downs 7?)


8 green


9


9 green


10


10 recessed bunkers (with a green tilted like Merion 5)


11



12


12 fairway bunkering


12 fairway bunkering


13


13 approach


14


15


15 approach


16


16 approach


17


18


18 approach

[Tim_Weiman]

GCA Members:


Almost two years after talking with Nick Schreiber and deciding to join the club, I have finally seen the golf course at Old Barnwell and walked all 18 holes for the past two days.


I will be here for the month and will probably have more observations later but for now will simply say Old Barnwell certainly passes what I consider to be be the most important question about a golf course:


Does the course have its own character?


I don’t think any student of golf architecture could doubt that Old Barnwell does.


Crazy as it sounds, I almost feel bad for Brian and Blake. Unlike George Crump who had his one brilliant contribution to golf architecture and then passed away, Brian and Blake are still both young people and I’m sure both hope there will be more opportunities in years to come.


All I can say is Old Barnwell won’t be easy to match.

[Robert Kimball]

Rob,


Just to clarify about 11, I think you meant 10.


Perhaps as much as any course I’ve played, a first time player will be constantly surprised by results and reveals around the course. That’s usually a trait reserved for courses in dunescape. Blake and Brian seem to have paid a lot of attention to viewpoints to make sure their ideas for hiding features/ground were realized.

Thank you, Ben -- I did mean 10.  And, thank you Kalen -- I don't know what happened but I haven't posted on here in a while, so I am rusty. 

[Jeff Schley]

Played today….. question….. what is up with hole 14? It was an impossible drive straight at the hole, which our caddies said you should go for it.  You have no fairway to land it and bunkers everywhere blind.


The green is small and perched with steep sides on back and left side. I think you should take an iron to the right and then take your chances with a short iron approach. The green is so challenging on the approach it wouldn’t be easy then.  How this is the 14 handicap hole is strange.


Liked the green complexes and width but had 20 mph gusts today.  Made it tough.

[Tim_Weiman]

Played today….. question….. what is up with hole 14? It was an impossible drive straight at the hole, which our caddies said you should go for it.  You have no fairway to land it and bunkers everywhere blind.


The green is small and perched with steep sides on back and left side. I think you should take an iron to the right and then take your chances with a short iron approach. The green is so challenging on the approach it wouldn’t be easy then.  How this is the 14 handicap hole is strange.


Liked the green complexes and width but had 20 mph gusts today.  Made it tough.

Jeff,


A couple weeks ago I watched two groups of college kids play. All eight of them went right at the green. None played up to the right, but one did miss right.


All things considered, I think going right at the green is the best play.


Tim

[Pierre_C]

Congratulations to Blake, Brian, and the team. You all created someplace special. The world is not always a good place, but it is good to know Old Barnwell is working to make it better.




4K video of Old Barnwell I found online.
https://youtu.be/asGBALP6xXo?si=xfctjhIm5hENR0Yi

[Tim_Weiman]

Congratulations to Blake, Brian, and the team. You all created someplace special. The world is not always a good place, but it is good to know Old Barnwell is working to make it better.




4K video of Old Barnwell I found online.
https://youtu.be/asGBALP6xXo?si=xfctjhIm5hENR0Yi

Pierre,


The club recently hosted a group of students, coaches and administrators from Voorhees University. It was a very nice event and a real credit to Nick Schreiber.


Voorhees doesn’t actually have a golf team, just a few freshman that play on their baseball team. Unfortunately, spring conflicts with their baseball schedule, so we weren’t able to find a date that worked for them to come out and play the golf course.


It will take some time, but I think Voorhees will prove to be a very nice relationship long term.


Tim

[jeffwarne]

Played today….. question….. what is up with hole 14? It was an impossible drive straight at the hole, which our caddies said you should go for it.  You have no fairway to land it and bunkers everywhere blind.


The green is small and perched with steep sides on back and left side. I think you should take an iron to the right and then take your chances with a short iron approach. The green is so challenging on the approach it wouldn’t be easy then.  How this is the 14 handicap hole is strange.


Liked the green complexes and width but had 20 mph gusts today.  Made it tough.

Ever played  #2 at NGLA? The inspiration.
#2 at NGLA is certainly at least as confusing of a hole if you are into a stiff wind and don't go right at the green.
At NGLA you end up in a deep hole far, far below the green if you right rather than straight at the green-which appears anything but obvious.


At OB, the landing area is is blindish and needs multiple plays-without pro caddies I think you'd need a play or two or even three to get a feel for it.
(I think that is a very good thing as IMHO the best holes reveal themselves after repeat plays as opposed to vapid "all out in front of you" architecture)


 But you can certainly see a ton of fairway way right-leaving you merely a wedge in, to a green which feeds from left to right form that angle.


Not sure what you mean by "impossible" to go straight at the green.
Were you playing the back tee into the 20 mph wind?
There's 40 plus yards between the fronting bunker and the green, and the green is another 35 yards deep, with fairway behind.
It's like 190 yards over the fronting bunker from the whites, maybe 225-235 over from the backs
But if you decide not to attempt the carry, there's a lot of fairway to the right of the bunkers you cite to the right
I would say the only criticism I would have of the hole is I've never seen a player NOT go right at the green.
I'm 61 and have yet to lay up from even the back tee(I play equal amounts from white and back) and I've played in every wind out there.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff,


Interesting that you made the same observation I did about #14, that is not seeing anyone NOT go for the green. I also wondered if this could be a criticism of the hole.


That said, I do think one could find trouble going right at the green and pushing the ball into the hazards on the right. Not trouble that is impossible to recover from, but possibly a bit awkward leading to bogey or worse.


I’m sure you know the hole better than I do, so I’m interested in your thoughts on missing right.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'll be at Tree Farm on April 23 and Old Barnwell on April 24. If any of you will be around, I'd love to meet you.

[Blake Conant]

Jeff Schley,


I wouldn’t describe a 9500 square foot green as small, but that’s just me.


As for the hole being impossible, I and most others would probably disagree. There’s 40 yards of approach once you clear the fronting bunkers and the green is another 35 yards deep. The approach is also 35 yards wide. From the whites, if you can carry it 195 yards and hit a 25x25yd area you’ll have an eagle putt. If you can’t do that there’s plenty of trouble to find and you’re scrambling for par. Brian and I really like that about the hole.


I’m not sure how far you carry your driver or what tee you play from, but that could be an issue. Laying up to the right is a very reasonable play, and maybe the correct play if the pin is left.

[Ben Sims]

On 14, the more I play the hole the more I see utility in the layup. Going for the green, from the white tees, it’s all carry to an area that is blind but inviting if you succeed. But there is danger on all sides if you don’t. The layup from the normal tees looks hard too. And think that’s why the hole is so cool. Though “the wall” looks perpendicular to the line of play, it is quite diagonal and the carry to the large fairway on the right isn’t nearly as hard. You learn this with multiple plays. It’s entirely possible to play the hole short iron/short iron for some players.

The data people say we should always be going for the green on this hole. But if you’ve been fighting various misses all day and depending on your match, it’s hard to step up confidently on 14 and bust a long club to a blind and relatively exacting target. There is a series of shots starting with the tee shot at 11 that serve as a barometer for my confidence on 14 tee. It’s just a tremendously thoughtful stretch of golf.


Philosophically, I think half par holes are really cool and I also think many drivable par 4’s have too little danger for not executing the tee shot. I also think chance and acceptance are a huge part of golf. 14 combines all of these things and that’s why I like it. 

PS—I watched one of the architects make birdie from one of the small bunkers in the lower part of the fairway after pushing their tee shot right. Hard to do, but possible.

[Jeff Schley]

Good discussion and thanks for insights. 

• We had 20 plus mph wind in our face from tee. Our caddie shot the carry and it was 238 left to 223 more right. Again with wind I was looking more right.
• Pin was back left, which made for a difficult location.  I did notice the ridge mid left that can filter a ball there, but not quite punchbowl collective as it can dump you off the back of the free as well.
• The blind bunkers off the tee caught one in our group and I think a yardage book would have really helped here.
• Is there really 35 yards of landing fairway over the ridge off the tee?  Didn't seem that much, but there are two levels.
• I do think with a couple more posts going right and taking a chance with a short iron will be a go, but the back left pin 3 paces away from a steep drop will add it's own difficulty.  Could see more docile pin locations to be fair.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff Schley,


Regarding your comment about blindness, my thought when I saw #14 for the first time was the first time I stood on the #15 tee at Crystal Downs.


It looked pretty benign. So I wondered. Was this Mackenzie applying camouflage?


Sure enough there is trouble on both sides out about 270 yards. You just can’t see it from the tee.


Thus when I saw #14 at Old Barnwell, I figured Brian and Blake had to have something up their sleeve. Sure enough they did!


Tim

[John Mayhugh]

I loved the 14th. It's not a tough par or bogey, but at the length you feel like it needs to be a birdie hole. And thus the problems start. I only had two plays and I think it would take a while to figure out the best way to play the hole. The massive bunker on the left isn't the worst place to be!

[Mike_Young]

I hope to play it next month but I have been around it twice.  It looks to be a special course and IMHO it will stand the test of time.  Good job guys. 

[Matt MacIver]

No one in our threesome considered playing out to the right on 14 from the White tees although there was minimal wind.  Pin was middle left but we didn’t know that from the tee box.


One ball went hard left and ended up near the beginning of the 15th tee - he hit a miraculous towering wedge to 15ft and made tap in par. 


One ball went in one of the deep right green side bunkers, he hit it 20 ft and made a nice par. 


The last ball went slightly left of the flag and upon arriving at the green I was happy to see a massive slope back left which must have caught and rebounded my ball back towards the hole to 12 ft with a massive uphill putt.  Made the 5ft!


It was our collective best hole of the day (i.e. we all finished the hole in par or better!). 


Overall course impressions: great, has to be in top 5% widest fairways and undulating greens in the US.  Greens and fairways ran as fast as wood floors and are still new so still hard to hold long approach shots.  Think you could play there forever and never have/need/play identical shots.