The Lido again

[Mark Mammel]

I played the Lido a few days ago. I was incredibly fortunate to play with Peter Flory, so not only did I get to try my hand on the course but I also got to hear more about its genesis than has even been discussed here. Like many, I had heard many varying opinions about Lido, with many whinging about how hard it was, how they were beaten up, and so on. Others absolutely loved it, so I was very excited to see what all the fuss was. I am 71, I played the white tees which gave me 20 strokes. The best local comparison I have for difficulty in the Twin Cities, where I play, is Hazeltine National. Since for my taste, while I enjoy the occasional round at HNGC with a close member friend, I'd slit my wrists if I had to play there every day. At Lido, I had a totally different experience, even though my score was about what I shoot at HNGC. We were playing with a group in a match play competition, so score was less important than just trying to win a hole- more fun for sure. But with Peter, and our excellent caddie Dave, I quickly found real excitement and challenge as I was introduced to the many different ways to get to each green. Peter gave us all rule #1 for the Lido- "Avoid the damn bunkers at all costs"! The variety of shots was remarkable, and the need to really concentrate on trying to put the ball more or less where it needed to go was really stimulating. No weak holes; playing the MacKenzie 18th was a gas, both as a golf hole and for the historical context.

So in short, I loved it and look forward to the next time. But where I'm going here- and what I'd like to hear from you all about- is the overall concept of "tabula rosa" design.  As we all know, CBM was given a blank check and a blank slate to build upon. I hadn't realized that in fact 15+feet of sand had to be pumped from the sea to create the surface in the first place! So what struck me was the realization of golf architecture as sculpture in a pure sense. CBM envisioned everything, created a plasticene replica with all rumples and humps and bumps to scale, and Raynor directed 400 men daily to build it. Previously, I felt strongly that a course should be "found" in the land- think the Old Course, Prestwick, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, White Bear Yacht Club and on and on. When I first played at Whistling Straights, it was difficult for me to accept the course since there was nothing there before it was built, and Dye created the whole thing. I now look in awe at the accomplishment, and believe I was small-minded and didn't really understand what design can be about, in spite of the books I had read and courses I had seen. Are courses like WS and Lido the ultimate "found" courses, as a sculptor finds their subject in the blank marble? I still love the "found" course but have a new viewpoint. What say you? Tom Doak, I really be interested in your view of this, and also the use of the amazing technology used to create Lido for future designs.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Mark--


Interesting question.  I had the same honor as you...probably a day or two later (on Sept 27), and watched in awe as Peter dissected the course like a brilliant heart surgeon (although I was awake for this surgery and asleep for my previous experiences  ).


You raise a very very interesting question and while I am not sure where the correct answer lies, my sense is that there are two or more paths to brilliant architecture.  And I would offer up two other recent golf experiences:


1.  On Sept 6 I was in Thailand and played Ballyshear, Gil Hanse's version of Lido.  The two Lido's are very very different (except both have an incredible set of greens).  The land at Ballyshear must have created some real headaches for Hanse...as the water table is clearly very high and it appears to this amateur that it proved impossible to create the deep bunkers that were key to the NY 1917 version and the Wisconsin 2022 version.  Ballyshear is loaded with very flat bunkers with lips averaging about 6"-9". And my guess is that his budget could not cover the cost of a a huge sand cap (remember, the 2 million cubic yard estimate of sand brought to the NY Lido site equals an astounding 9 feet 6 inches of sand spread evenly across the original site's 130 acres...do the math yourselves).  Hence Peter's advice, so perfect in WI, does not "fit" the Ballyshear version...and the Ballyshear version IMO does not create the course that is a tough play for better players and a potentially easy play (if played smartly...by listening carefully to one's caddy) for the average player.  Ballyshear is almost a "two dimensional" Lido, but well worth seeing if you are in Asia.


2.  On Sept 16 I played what will probably be my last round at Sand Hills Golf Club (NE)...perhaps the greatest example of a "found" golf course at least in the USA. Clearly the brilliance of the original and the WI Lido's do not disprove the "found" route to architectural brilliance, but instead offers another pathway.  And perhaps that is what Tom Doak really means with his consistent and high high praise for the brilliance of Pete Dye.  Remember, Whistling Straights is just one of many many Dye designs created out of nothing...Sawgrass, Harbour Town, the CA desert and the Scottsdale desert being loaded with other examples.


Next question might be...is there a third , fourth, etc pathway.


My reaction to Lido-WI is that it is as brilliant (in a very different way) as Sand Hills was when it opened in 1995.  Both being highly unusual at their birth.  Lido-WI being one of the world's greatest pieces of "plagiarism" (NOT intended as an insult or accusation as Peter certainly has done zippo to pass Lido-WI off as his architecture ...and same applies to Tom).  It is an absolute MUST play!

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:


I'm not sure what to tell you.


Lido has been a success beyond my expectations, but of course we were just following an award-winning script there.


The next step for this technology would be for someone to actually design a whole course from scratch on the computer, like Macdonald did in his plasticine model.  Can it be done?  Certainly.  Is anyone talented enough to take that approach and create something great?  They haven't proven themselves as yet.


I wonder what Macdonald would have done if he'd had the technology we do today.  Would he have replicated the Eden or the Redan down to the inch?  [And if so, which versions of them??].  Would he have "sampled" the contours of fairways at St Andrews or Deal and used those in America?  [My guess is yes; he wasn't a guy who relied on "shapers" or at least no one knows who they were, and Macdonald would know that true links contours are much more intricate than one can draw on a normal grading plan.  But in the digital era, you can get every little bump exactly like nature made them in the UK.]


I'm about to try the latter in Florida -- and a little of the former as well.  I will let you know how it goes.  Interestingly, though, last week my wife told me she doesn't think I should take on any more "flat earth" projects after this one, because it doesn't bring out the best in me.  I was struck because she doesn't normally pay that much attention to what I'm working on.  She must not like the idea of templates either!

[Thomas Dai]

Worth referencing Phil Carlucci's recent thread here with its description of play on the original -https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,72320.0.html
atb

[Ben Stephens]

Mark:


I'm not sure what to tell you.


Lido has been a success beyond my expectations, but of course we were just following an award-winning script there.


The next step for this technology would be for someone to actually design a whole course from scratch on the computer, like Macdonald did in his plasticine model.  Can it be done?  Certainly.  Is anyone talented enough to take that approach and create something great?  They haven't proven themselves as yet.


I wonder what Macdonald would have done if he'd had the technology we do today.  Would he have replicated the Eden or the Redan down to the inch?  [And if so, which versions of them??].  Would he have "sampled" the contours of fairways at St Andrews or Deal and used those in America?  [My guess is yes; he wasn't a guy who relied on "shapers" or at least no one knows who they were, and Macdonald would know that true links contours are much more intricate than one can draw on a normal grading plan.  But in the digital era, you can get every little bump exactly like nature made them in the UK.]


I'm about to try the latter in Florida -- and a little of the former as well.  I will let you know how it goes.  Interestingly, though, last week my wife told me she doesn't think I should take on any more "flat earth" projects after this one, because it doesn't bring out the best in me.  I was struck because she doesn't normally pay that much attention to what I'm working on.  She must not like the idea of templates either!

Umm isn't 'transporting' a hole from Uk to Florida not perfect due to differing weather conditions and soil/grass types?


I know a few other golf course architects that are using 3D computer models for more than 5 years - its not really on show to the general public

[John Challenger]

Would he have "sampled" the contours of fairways at St Andrews or Deal and used those in America?  [My guess is yes; he wasn't a guy who relied on "shapers" or at least no one knows who they were, and Macdonald would know that true links contours are much more intricate than one can draw on a normal grading plan.  But in the digital era, you can get every little bump exactly like nature made them in the UK.]


I'm about to try the latter in Florida -- and a little of the former as well.  I will let you know how it goes. 



I wonder if undulating fairways are about to become the rage in golf course designs and restorations around the world. The Lido and Tom's new course in Florida, and perhaps a few others, could be the catalysts. It's now possible to create digital fairway undulation maps and to utilize robotic fairway undulation machines to construct the proper fairway contours. From the 1890s, when golf course development moved from the linksland to the city, until now, there has been no affordable way to bring this essential feature of links golf, of golf course design, to the parkland. 130 years later, there is finally a remedy to the problem. Just like wind, fairway undulations are an essential element of the game.


Speaking of new innovations, and as an aside because it's not worth an entire post, and forgive me for adding it here, but I was wondering if we might see zip lines on golf courses in the future? I was recently playing at Old Head with its dramatic cliff walks and one of my playing partners brought up the idea. It would create so much interest from the 18 to 34 demographic.

[Ben Stephens]

Micro-contours are a bit of a nightmare for large fairway mowers which are often used on US courses the consistency of the cut heights is not there - at St Andrews I have seen smaller fairway mowers in use but that was over 20 years ago - things might have changed since then.


In Iceland I played Brautarholt and they had little robotic mowers on each fairway which was useful cutting those micro contours


Wish Tom all the best creating something out of flat land like his mentor Pete Dye but in his own way.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I don't see Lido like a sculptor and a piece of marble. I see it more like someone doing a clay model where they add clay and shape it.


Bayonne might be one of the more built-up courses I have played.
I did not find Lido to be as difficult as some. I did hit the ball pretty straight that day and did get up and down from three of the five bunkers I was in. I had a great caddie who told me where to hit it, and it was different from the others in my foursome.

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:


Definitely, Macdonald’s model for Lido was of the built-up kind, not the whittling away kind.


I a a m not surprised you fared better than most.  The Lido is easier if you hit it where you want to.

[MCirba]

Wouldn't the drainage success of replicated links contours on inland courses be dependent on soil and agronomic conditions?  Or do we need a lot of artificial drains in all the low spots?

[Peter Flory]

Whenever I read the way that non scratch players used to play classic golf courses, my thought is that the mindset has died out.  The Mackenzie Lido contest entry is the ultimate example, where he'd actually expect someone to take route #4 or #5.  But I guess that guys who are drawn to the Lido now are a bit more old school and they know that they are entering into a puzzle when they show up.  It was quite interesting watching these gentlemen plot their way through.  There's no avoiding all the bunkers if you have flat out miss hit the ball, but there are definitely some lines that offer more safety than others. 

[Stephen Britton]

Micro-contours are a bit of a nightmare for large fairway mowers which are often used on US courses the consistency of the cut heights is not there - at St Andrews I have seen smaller fairway mowers in use but that was over 20 years ago - things might have changed since then.


In Iceland I played Brautarholt and they had little robotic mowers on each fairway which was useful cutting those micro contours


Wish Tom all the best creating something out of flat land like his mentor Pete Dye but in his own way.

Same fairway mowers are typically used all over the world.

[John Challenger]

It seems shocking today to think that CBM, the ultimate traditionalist, actually built up the Lido from a flat canvas. Old Tom found his courses in the dunes. The Golden Age architects sculpted, molded and built elements of their courses into the land they found. As their tools and machines improved after WW1, they created more radical designs. In 1915-1917, CBM created a flat earth canvas with rudimentary technology on a shoreline, and then rebuilt his clay or plaster model at 10000x+ the size.

Back on the topic of fairway undulations, CBM tries "to enumerate all the essential features of a perfect golf course...and to give each of these essential characteristics a value the sum total of which would be 100, or perfection." He gives "Perfection in undulation and hillocks" a 22, which is the highest number of any characteristic other than "Nature of the soil," i.e. hard and fast, which is a 23. 

I've played lines #1 through #4 on Hole 18 at Lido. It's hard and risky to play line #1 and I think one should really only attempt it when the pin is back right and the match is on the line. Maybe Rahm would have used it last week when he needed a birdie on 18 against Scheffler to tie the match.

It's interesting that MacKenzie and CBM created line #5. CBM was not averse to moving tees up.

CBM says in regard to Lido's Hole 18, "I adopted as the eighteenth hole Dr. Mackenzie's plan, which had been awarded first prize, but I altered it because it took up too much room. He was making a separate fairway for men who could drive 160 yards and then for the men who could carry 180 yards on a direct line. This made three distinct fairways, which in breadth was something like 200-odd yards. Of course it was quite easy to do away with the fairway for the 120-yard men simply by building a short tee, which I did."

[William_G]

while Flory, Doak and Keiser did a great thing based on 3D computer imaging

Old Mac>>>>>>>>>>Lido
just sayin

[Tommy Williamsen]

18 was fun for the four of us. Two of us hit it to the right fairway, and two of us went straight over the center bunker. The two that hit it right ended up in the bunker short of the green. The two of us that hit it over the center bunker into the little tongue hit the green. My caddie was funny. He begged me to hit it left and play the hole as a three-shotter because the wind was blowing pretty hard against us. I told him I wanted to go straight. "Oh, please don't," he implored. I ignored him and did not hit a particularly good shot, I ended up just left of the tongue of a bunker. I was on a little upslope, a long way from the green. My caddie didn't always want to tell me the yardage. He had figured out my game very quickly. He handed me my driver. "You sure? How far am I?" "I'm not telling you. Go ahead and give it a go." I hit one of the best shots of the day. The pin was in a little valley back left. I hit it to about ten feet. Daryl Boe even got the shot on video. I went away very pleased with myself and in awe of the course. My caddie went home pleased as well.

[Tom_Doak]

Wouldn't the drainage success of replicated links contours on inland courses be dependent on soil and agronomic conditions?  Or do we need a lot of artificial drains in all the low spots?

We'll need drains, especially in Florida!  But we put some drains in the fairways on a couple of holes at Pinehurst #10 and they do not detract IMO.

[Tom_Doak]

while Flory, Doak and Keiser did a great thing based on 3D computer imaging

Old Mac>>>>>>>>>>Lido
just sayin

Have you been to The Lido to compare?


I am certainly interested in the comparison, and was discussing this with Ran the other day.  I feel that Old Mac is more linksy, but I haven't played The Lido at peak condition, which we will do for the Renaissance Cup on Monday and Tuesday.  I will say that the "original" holes at The Lido [2, 4, 15, 18] are better than mine at Old Mac.  But our links version of some of the template holes are pretty cool.

[John Challenger]

I've only played Old Mac once and need to return soon to look at those linksy templates. Actually, I will just go online and look for the drone views. So far, and I assume my mind will change, my favorite templates at the Lido are Cape, Punch Bowl and Redan. The beauty, complexity and the difficulty of each of these holes make them some of the greatest versions ever created. Love the Alps too for its green complex and its peak around the corner. Lagoon is a baffling composite hole.

[William_G]

while Flory, Doak and Keiser did a great thing based on 3D computer imaging

Old Mac>>>>>>>>>>Lido
just sayin

Have you been to The Lido to compare?

yes, of course, last month
played in the prevailing wind


OM>>>>>>>>LIDO whatever the wind


please take this as a compliment about OM, as others will agree with this opinion once they play LIDO and OM


thank you

[David_Tepper]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-lido-sand-valley-resort-wisconsin-course-review?utm_medium=email&utm_source=100723&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM44906&uuid=9861c6da148243648f1aa92679fb32a0

[Tom_Doak]

please take this as a compliment about OM, as others will agree with this opinion once they play LIDO and OM

Oh, I do.  I will agree with anyone who has my design above Macdonald's.  There are just so many people opining who haven't even played both, I wanted to be sure you had before I chalked up the ego boost.  /s

[Tom_Doak]

I played a lot of golf at The Lido today, and watched a bunch of better players tackle it, too.


The whole time we were building the course, I was focused on WHAT we had to build, and I didn't think a lot about WHY some of those contours were out there.  Today I got to see that every single contour in those fairways was intentional by Macdonald, and all of them were in play for certain golfers who were trying to hit certain shots . . . even in places that no one could have carried their tee shot 100 years ago.


Mind.  Blown.

[John Challenger]

I was looking at the drone footage of Old Macdonald. Those fairways are more undulatory than I expected. Hole #3 Sahara is a beautiful blind shot with its reveal of the land the golf course is about to be played over.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSJvfRUIhJM

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played a lot of golf at The Lido today, and watched a bunch of better players tackle it, too.


The whole time we were building the course, I was focused on WHAT we had to build, and I didn't think a lot about WHY some of those contours were out there.  Today I got to see that every single contour in those fairways was intentional by Macdonald, and all of them were in play for certain golfers who were trying to hit certain shots . . . even in places that no one could have carried their tee shot 100 years ago.


Mind.  Blown.

Tom, after having built it, played it, and watched others play it, what are your biggest takeaways?
Are there any new thoughts about design you might employ in your designs?

[John Challenger]

Mind.  Blown.



!!!


Bringing up the Lido again. It's not too often that someone who has examined so many courses sees something new. Interesting too that LIDAR is producing new insights about the Old Course.


It begs the question whether the the Golden Age greats had design insights that are still lost in time.


I was wondering what version of the Lido sits in Wisconsin today? Is it the Macdonald design there at the original opening? Like other architects, he continued to shape his golf courses after the opening. Should that process be considered as finished at the new Lido?