OT - Effective Starters/Marshals

[Niall C]

Erik


In my experience, a long tee is easier and simpler to use than a pitchmark repairer for typical greens that you get in the UK and it is also hard to use it as badly as a pitchmark repairer if you don't know what you are doing. The other advantage with using a tee is that you have them to hand anyway.


Niall

[John Kavanaugh]

A pitchmark tool is part of the costume.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

In my experience, a long tee is easier and simpler to use than a pitchmark repairer for typical greens that you get in the UK and it is also hard to use it as badly as a pitchmark repairer if you don't know what you are doing. The other advantage with using a tee is that you have them to hand anyway.

I disagree, and so does the superintendent who wrote the PDF (that's why tees are listed in the "ineffective and unacceptable" [the images are Gordon's] section). Tees can work in a pinch if you know what you're doing and you're careful, but more often they're quite bad as they don't push very well and they make bigger holes than necessary.

I've played in the UK, and my standard small/thin two-prong tools worked just as well there as here.

[Rob Marshall]

Its not rocket science. Per the USGA:


Insert the ball mark repair tool behind the ball mark and gently push the top of the tool toward the center. Continue working around the ball mark, pushing the surrounding turf in toward the center of the indentation. Avoid using a lifting or twisting motion because this can damage turf roots. Once you have finished pushing turf in toward the center, gently tamp the area down with your putter to create a smooth, firm surface.

[Niall C]

In my experience, a long tee is easier and simpler to use than a pitchmark repairer for typical greens that you get in the UK and it is also hard to use it as badly as a pitchmark repairer if you don't know what you are doing. The other advantage with using a tee is that you have them to hand anyway.

I disagree, and so does the superintendent who wrote the PDF (that's why tees are listed in the "ineffective and unacceptable" [the images are Gordon's] section). Tees can work in a pinch if you know what you're doing and you're careful, but more often they're quite bad as they don't push very well and they make bigger holes than necessary.

I've played in the UK, and my standard small/thin two-prong tools worked just as well there as here.

Erik


Well it's not the first time we've disagreed. What I will say is that I've spent a bit more time in the UK than a two week holiday and using a tee works very well for me and my friends. Very well as in you can't see the pitchmark after the repair. I've also used it in Spain which I'd guess has similar type greens to parts of the US and it has also worked well there also. My several golfing trips to US were a number of years ago and again can't recall any issues.


Main points for me though are 1) it is harder to dig up a green and do damage with a tee than a pitchmark repairer, and 2) you really don't need a 17 page condescending text to show how to do it properly.


Niall

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Well it's not the first time we've disagreed.

Nor is it the first time you've been oddly jingoistic. Your turf is not that different than the turf/dirt we have available in various areas here.

What I will say is that I've spent a bit more time in the UK than a two week holiday and using a tee works very well for me and my friends.

It can, but it's not the best tool for the job. It's one-prong, which makes pushing without tearing as much difficult, and it's thick, which leaves bigger holes.

it is harder to dig up a green and do damage with a tee than a pitchmark repairer

The opposite is more likely true for reasons explained already.

you really don't need a 17 page condescending text to show how to do it properly.

Aha! Here's where your assumptions lead you… The superintendent wrote it. They're his pictures, his text, etc. I simply put it in a PDF, because it used to be a web page, and they changed their site a number of years ago and eliminated his blog. It's not mine, and he's just trying to share the best way that he's found with roughly 40+ years as a superintendent.

I'll be sure to pass your feedback along to him. 

[Michael Dugger]

I'm 110% in support of employment opportunities for the retired.


But otherwise, I don't find much value in starters and marshals.


If you need what these folks have to offer, perhaps you should pick up another game.


I mean seriously, if the starter's input is so valued on the first tee, what the heck am I supposed to do on the other 17 tee boxes?


I do like the idea of a marshall "keeping things moving" but when you approach me and say I am not walking fast enough to the green on the par 3 after our group waited 10 minutes to tee off, you can just bugger right on off.


Golfers who cannot figure out how to navigate their way around the course and keep up the appropriate pace of play should pick up another game. 


All of that to say, I prefer silent starters and marshalls, which of course flies directly in the face of what their purpose is in the first place. 

[Ed Galbavy]

I know starters and Players assistants are not the most popular people on this board.  However, IMHO the starters and the PA's are there for the higher staffers and the owners.


In my experience, the role of the starter is kind of like an air traffic controller.  The day starts with a sheet of paper that has the day's tee times.  We note how much traffic is on the course.  Starting with the first group, we note the cart numbers, whether there are walkers, and how many players.  We ask if the group has played the course before, what tees they are considering playing from and, in our case, warn them about the alligators in the lagoons and not to get too emotionally attached to their golf ball if they hit their ball in the water.  Good information to relay.  And lastly to gently remind them about pace of play. We tell them that we monitor their time when they finish the 9th hole.


The marshall gets the cart information and number of players from the starter.  He'll go out on the course and monitor play.  He usually has a cooler of water and sand for filling empty sand bottles.  Most of the time, if I'm the marshall, I'll ask if they need any water.  Usually just this question will gauge whether the group wants to engage or not.  None of us are there for confrontation.  But inevitably, it happens.


The bottom line is that the golf staff wants to know the pace of play.  We provide them that after the turn.  We can pretty much see the trouble spots.  We also note the time after the 18th hole.  It's more for information on the day because there is not much we can do once you finish.


So next time you want to blow off the starter or marshall, it's not personal.  They are there doing a job for the golf staff.  Hell, I pretty much blow them off myself when I play, but I don't go out of my way to disrespect them.

[Sean_A]

Why not give each group a tracker if you want to know pace of play? That data will also easily show the problem areas. After a few months you should have enough data to create action points.

Ciao

[Matt Schoolfield]

Why not give each group a tracker

GPS enabled golf carts are this. Seriously. It’s the source of some of the best pace of play data we have.

[Niall C]

Well it's not the first time we've disagreed.

Nor is it the first time you've been oddly jingoistic. Your turf is not that different than the turf/dirt we have available in various areas here.

What I will say is that I've spent a bit more time in the UK than a two week holiday and using a tee works very well for me and my friends.

It can, but it's not the best tool for the job. It's one-prong, which makes pushing without tearing as much difficult, and it's thick, which leaves bigger holes.

it is harder to dig up a green and do damage with a tee than a pitchmark repairer

The opposite is more likely true for reasons explained already.

you really don't need a 17 page condescending text to show how to do it properly.

Aha! Here's where your assumptions lead you… The superintendent wrote it. They're his pictures, his text, etc. I simply put it in a PDF, because it used to be a web page, and they changed their site a number of years ago and eliminated his blog. It's not mine, and he's just trying to share the best way that he's found with roughly 40+ years as a superintendent.

I'll be sure to pass your feedback along to him. 

Erik


I'm not being jingoistic, just giving some context to my comments. As a former poster used to say, it's a big wide world out there and not everyone plays on the same type of turf/grasses.


As for damage done in attempted pitchmark repairing, all the literature and video's that I've seen highlight the damage done by lifting or leveraging the ground up rather than pushing in. I've yet to see anyone try to leverage up using a tee but have seen it quite a lot from those armed with a pitchmark repairer. There's a very simple reason for that as it's harder to do with a tee.


As to the assumption you think I made, please tell me what that is ? You clearly referenced the superintendent in your post and I never made any comment on who produced the pdf. Irrespective of that, Rob pretty well nailed it in a single sentence whereas the USGA encapsulated everything you need to know in a single paragraph so why do we need 17 pages of condescending pish ?


Niall
 

[Niall C]

And also, please feel free to pass my comments on to your pal.


Niall

[Jeff Schley]

Just played Hirono in 93 degrees and humid weather. Terrible for our 83 year old host.  Most are over 70 and walking there is not easy.  We get behind a hole and a cart comes out to talk to our member, but he simply wasn't physically able to keep pace in those conditions.  The culture isn't to pick up either so it added up to the marshall, which I believe was one of the pros  having to say hurry up, but without a cart it really wasn't possible.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I'm not being jingoistic, just giving some context to my comments. As a former poster used to say, it's a big wide world out there and not everyone plays on the same type of turf/grasses.

Sure you are. Your grasses are not so different that a tool goes from "bad" to "best."

As for damage done in attempted pitchmark repairing, all the literature and video's that I've seen highlight the damage done by lifting or leveraging the ground up rather than pushing in.

And if you read the guide, you'd see that it doesn't say to "leverage or lift." The "best" tools are still used to push, and they do a better job of pushing than a tee.

You clearly referenced the superintendent in your post and I never made any comment on who produced the pdf.

You said a "17-page condescending text." The superintendent wrote the PDF. You seem to have assumed I wrote it, and let your usual inability to not add your own tone to text get you.

Irrespective of that, Rob pretty well nailed it in a single sentence whereas the USGA encapsulated everything you need to know in a single paragraph so why do we need 17 pages of condescending pish?

Because it has large text and pictures, and illustrates rather than just saying. And if you don't need it, don't read it. It's not like you were forced. But clearly, you still need it, because you continue to insist that a tee is the best tool because of the super special turf you have in your country.

I'm not going to apologize for trying to offer a resource to people, written by someone who knows a bit more about proper repair than you do, to the members and visitors of this site. Take it or leave it.

And also, please feel free to pass my comments on to your pal.

I did. He reminded me that he spent six months in the UK working as an assistant super years ago, and had a good chuckle at your assessment of his tone in written document. 

[Kalen Braley]

Erik,

I'm not sure how recently you've looked at this document, but Niall is right on point.  It certainly does come off as condescending with comments like this, (all found in the first section):

"In most cases it would be better if they didn't fix them at all!"
"It's very frustrating to know that properly fixing a ball mark is so easy, yet so many people are struggling with the concept."
"So who wants to help? Oh, I forgot, everyone does know how to fix a ball mark correctly"
"This exercise will enable you to really understand the true problem and perhaps with this understanding you could help me communicate to others and spread the word about the proper way to fix a ball mark."

Not to mention, its riddled with lack of proper punctuation and grammar, including a complete lack of commas to help with flow. To boot, it's littered with little beauties like this:

"These four repair tools are ineffective and unexceptable to use at anytime"

"Please do you part and use the information provided"

And I'm not sure where to even start on the redundancy issue, too many catch phrases and clichés to keep track of, but I'm guessing the reader really enjoys being admonished in bold "Do not pry up!" 4 times in a row after each step in section 5.

I wish I could say this document is amateur-hour kind of stuff, but I'm not sure it even meets that bar.  Probably closer to an 8th grade English project.

P.S.  Perhaps remove your name under the title if you don't want people to think you wrote it.  Personally speaking, I would be embarrassed to put my name on this, much less publish it for public consumption.  Good Luck!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

"In most cases it would be better if they didn't fix them at all!"

Or, you can read it as a simple statement. His opinion. Heaven forbid you give a guy who is trying to share some good information, and that you've never met or discussed things with in any medium, some benefit of the doubt.

Not to mention, it's riddled with lack of proper punctuation and grammar, including a complete lack of commas to help with flow. To boot, it's littered with little beauties like this:

As already noted, Gordon wrote it, and he's a superintendent, not an English scholar. I hate misspelled words, too. But this is Gordon's. The information is still there, and you can still determine what he's trying to say.

P.S.  Perhaps remove your name under the title if you don't want people to think you wrote it.  Personally speaking, I would be embarrassed to put my name on this, much less publish it for public consumption.  Good Luck!

Thank you for sharing.

[Rob Marshall]

Tim, looks like we may have some new companions on the ignore list......

[Tim Martin]

Tim, looks like we may have some new companions on the ignore list......

Rob-I don’t how the thread diverged from Starters/Marshall’s to how to fix a pitch mark? Just remember that you’re in good company.

[Rob Marshall]

Erik


In my experience, a long tee is easier and simpler to use than a pitchmark repairer for typical greens that you get in the UK and it is also hard to use it as badly as a pitchmark repairer if you don't know what you are doing. The other advantage with using a tee is that you have them to hand anyway.


Niall

Niall, Augusta agrees with you....


https://golf.com/news/how-augusta-national-repairs-ball-marks/