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mike_malone

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Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« on: August 28, 2023, 07:55:49 PM »
I realized that four of our five fairway bunkers on par fours were originally designed at 180 or more yards from the green with the other one accessible on a short 4.


  This seems unusual to me but I wanted to get other’s’ experience.



AKA Mayday

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2023, 01:58:28 AM »
One of the last things I think about is how far a fairway bunker is from a green: Because I don’t expect anyone that is in them to be able to reach the green.

Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2023, 07:54:01 AM »
I don't think it's unusual.  Are they top shot bunkers or on longer par 4s?

mike_malone

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2023, 08:24:12 AM »
Around 200 off the tee
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2023, 04:35:23 PM »
One of the last things I think about is how far a fairway bunker is from a green: Because I don’t expect anyone that is in them to be able to reach the green.


In the USA you have to think about it differently, because most players are going to be thinking they should be able to get onto the green if they hit a great shot.


My conversation with Brooks Koepka switched my thinking on this.  If a fairway bunker is only 100 or 150 yards from the green, it's pretty pointless, because it doesn't make much difference to a very good player . . . and if you built it severe enough to matter, he would just play away from it, because he'll still be within wedge distance of the green.  So, the only fairway bunkers that really make sense now in America are the bunkers on long par-4's and par-5's, where being in the bunker might mean you can't get home.

mike_beene

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2023, 11:17:31 PM »
Does a fairway bunker shot over water from those distances give any bother? Nine at Colonial for example.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2023, 10:01:49 AM »
My conversation with Brooks Koepka switched my thinking on this.  If a fairway bunker is only 100 or 150 yards from the green, it's pretty pointless, because it doesn't make much difference to a very good player . . . and if you built it severe enough to matter, he would just play away from it, because he'll still be within wedge distance of the green.  So, the only fairway bunkers that really make sense now in America are the bunkers on long par-4's and par-5's, where being in the bunker might mean you can't get home.

Interesting.  I always believed similarly.  I had no trouble doing ultra deep bunkers on par 5 holes.  I mean the worst that happens is you wedge out and still have an iron to the green, although some players might believe that a penalty of not being able to reach a par 5 green in 2 is somehow unfair.

By the end of my career, I started to formalize an old idea - any fw bunker more than 180-200 from the green is usually unnecessary because if a golfer has muffed their tee shot to that distance, most average golfers have taken themselves out of reach the green in regulation anyway, and I didn't need them making doubles, bogey was enough penalty (i.e., hard par, easy bogey)  If, as Tom says, they are not impactful to top players unless it's over 150 yards from the green, well that leaves a pretty narrow range philosophically, at least as it relates to strategery.  They still might be needed as targets, or general aesthetics, which is their main function anyway. ;D (I mean, rough comprises about 3 acres on the typical hole, and fw bunkers, even well located, consist of a few thousand sq. feet.  If a total of 4356 SF on a hole, that is 0.1 acres, and not as likely to be your hazard as rough.
Prior to the pandemic boost, many architects survived on bunker reduction plans, and really, golf is a tough biz, so that idea wasn't new.  I think bunker reductions probably started in the depression and WWII, and continued after WW II as cost cutting measures, only interupted by the golf boom of the 80s and 90s, where we forgot about cost and prior recessions, because, let's face it, we all like to design pretty courses, and maybe too difficult courses. 

That is why you don't see a lot of so called random bunkering.  I always felt that just about any bunker needed to serve multiple purposes to be justified, among strategy (first) then aesthetics, safety, directional (or mis-directional), save bunkers, etc.  For pace of play, I didn't use a lot of fore bunkers that might affect only players who don't need affecting.

I agree that you put fw bunkers into natural land forms where they fit, even if they aren't quite at the "prescribed" distance of whatever, after adjusting for elevation difference and prevailing winds, which in many places can move that supposed target zone dozens of yards each way, so being precise really doesn't matter as much as some thought in trying to keep bunkers that only affect good players.  As I always said, the guy who pays the greens fee ought to be able to experience at least some of the hazards, maybe just not as much as better players.

One new wrinkle that I haven't heard much discussion on is, with the rise of proportional distance length holes, on long par 4 and 5 holes, there are situations where the LZ for the back tees is actually further from the green and closer to the tees than for the shorter tees.  In those cases, where do you place them?  Do we just put them where back tee players will land, which might catch shorter missed shots from forward tee players?  Put them further down to play "correctly" for the vast majority of players, and catch only the longest drivers from the back tee?  Or try to place them between zones to attempt to service both, i.e., a carry bunker for back tee players and a flanking bunker for average ones?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

mike_malone

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2023, 02:57:18 PM »
Jeff explains what I thought. Bunkers far from the green should fit the land and do other things like aesthetics. Flynn considered the mode of play message to be key.


 At my home course four of the original bunkers have significant rollout if they aren’t in the designed location so that’s a factor.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2023, 04:09:00 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2023, 05:58:12 AM »

My conversation with Brooks Koepka switched my thinking on this.  If a fairway bunker is only 100 or 150 yards from the green, it's pretty pointless, because it doesn't make much difference to a very good player . . .


I don't understand why it's pointless. Aren't courses designed with every caliber of golfer in mind?   I think a fairway bunker at 150 could affect the way most average players play the hole, especially if it has some depth. Is it not okay to have a feature that penalizes the less than very good golfer even if it doesn't affect the very good player?

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2023, 06:00:31 AM »


 At my home course four of the original bunkers have significant rollout if they aren’t in the designed location so that’s a factor.


Can you clarify this?

Mark_Fine

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2023, 07:36:46 AM »
Lehigh has a fairway bunker in the middle of the fairway about 80 yards from the front of a run away green.  It is the best bunker on the golf course.  There are few cardinal rules in GCA.   

Tom_Doak

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2023, 08:50:02 AM »

My conversation with Brooks Koepka switched my thinking on this.  If a fairway bunker is only 100 or 150 yards from the green, it's pretty pointless, because it doesn't make much difference to a very good player . . .


I don't understand why it's pointless. Aren't courses designed with every caliber of golfer in mind?   I think a fairway bunker at 150 could affect the way most average players play the hole, especially if it has some depth. Is it not okay to have a feature that penalizes the less than very good golfer even if it doesn't affect the very good player?


Yes, it's still okay to have bunkers for other reasons, and most of my courses do.  But I just don't fool myself into thinking they really matter for the good player.  In fact, the conversation has tilted me in the direction of wanting to build courses where the bunkers are dangerous enough to matter, so we are going to try that on two of the courses we are just getting started on:  that style wouldn't have fit in Pinehurst or Sand Valley, but I think it will in Texas and Florida (!).

mike_malone

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2023, 09:08:56 AM »


 At my home course four of the original bunkers have significant rollout if they aren’t in the designed location so that’s a factor.


Can you clarify this?


Jeff suggested that golfers who hit their tee shots to the area of these faraway bunkers aren’t reaching the green anyway even if the bunker wasn’t there. So not reaching the green from the bunker isn’t much different.
 I’m just adding that there can be rollout in the fairway that the bunker restricts. In that case the bunker is more penalizing.




This topic is a roundabout way of criticizing trying to place bunkers where a class of players is likely to hit the ball.


I think the land should be the most important consideration followed by strategy and aesthetics.
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2023, 10:00:51 AM »
Lehigh has a fairway bunker in the middle of the fairway about 80 yards from the front of a run away green.  It is the best bunker on the golf course.  There are few cardinal rules in GCA.


Love that bunker,Mark. I guess you could say it’s a green side bunker that’s far from the green.  ;D [size=78%]It’s a classic mode of play bunker. [/size]
AKA Mayday

Mark_Fine

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2023, 11:05:34 AM »
I think bunker and hazard placement often has more to do with the style and preferences of the architect than it does the land.  Think about architects like Herbert Leeds and what he did at Myopia Hunt Club as well as Fownes at Oakmont.  Leeds would walk the course with a handful of white stones in his pocket looking for areas where there were lots of divots.  He would toss the stones in those areas and the next day there would be a bunker.  Fownes added countless bunkers to his golf course in the areas where he expected golfers to play their shots.  It was a very penal style of design.  There are all different types of golf course architecture and that is one of the main reasons so many of us love the game.  If every architect designed courses the same way with the same design criteria the game would be far less interesting and franking very boring. 

Niall C

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2023, 11:18:46 AM »
Leeds would walk the course with a handful of white stones in his pocket looking for areas where there were lots of divots.  He would toss the stones in those areas and the next day there would be a bunker.  Fownes added countless bunkers to his golf course in the areas where he expected golfers to play their shots.  It was a very penal style of design.


Mark


Is that not more or less what Low and Paton did on the 4th hole at Woking ie. place a bunker to where players would like to play their shot ? Would that not be strategic design ?


Niall

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2023, 12:11:33 PM »
Just for grins, here is the chapter in my book, the Greens Committee Guide, summarizing my basic thoughts on hazard placement.  Sorry about the formatting issues:

Where Do We Place Fairway Hazards?
 
For most golfers, the answer is simple…..about 15 yards further than they hit their tee shots to punish those longer hitting son of a guns. 
 Golf course architects take a more thoughtful approach, considering all golfers.  They start with a theoretical center line, running from the back tee to the landing zone, and then on to the green.  100 years ago, that theoretical landing zone was 200 yards away, but over time, it has increased with tee shot distances.  Currently, architects typically use theoretical dogleg points or landing zones ranging anywhere between 265 – 300 yards, measured from the back tee, depending on their preference and the type of course being designed.  Shorter regulation or executive courses might still use 225-250 yard landing zones.

 
However, architects shouldn’t “lock on” to that dog leg point when placing hazards, adjusting them based on:
 
·       Altitude – i.e., Denver’s altitude famously adds 10% - 15% more length.
·       Uphill and downhill shots – Downhill shots go further, of course.
·       Prevailing Wind – Which is variable, and adjustments are always “best guesses.”  And no, it’s not your imagination, science shows that headwinds hurt golf shots more than tail winds help them.
·       Landing Zone Topography – Uphill, downhill, and occasionally sidehill topography affect roll and thus total distance.  Wet and dry conditions (by either natural or irrigation) can also influence tee shot distance.
·       Tee organization – Hazard placement should consider their distance from each of any multiple tees, with newer paradigms of proportional tee spacing often complicating hazard placement. 
 
Design Philosophy plays a big part in hazard placement.  Is this course meant to be strategic, penal, or heroic?  What about this hole?  Some holes can be designed [size=78%]t[/size]o challenge better players, while others might challenge average players more.

 
Strategic designs rarely punish badly muffed tee shots.  Usually, one additional shot to reach the green is considered enough punishment.  Hazard placement should consider the realistic tee shot distances of typical players, playing the correct tee for their tee shot distance.  (And not those short hitters who insist on “playing the whole course” from the back tees.)
 
Hazard placement should consider that average players don’t always attain maximum length on tee shots, and that their tee shots typically have a higher proportion of roll than longer hitters.  They don’t need poor shots in hazards, but having their career-long tee shots land in a hazard is also a Pyrrhic Victory.  Average players also have a wider shot dispersion patterns.  Fairway landing areas should generally allow all players to avoid hazards with reasonable shots. 
 
Over 14 long holes, it’s best to create a variety of tee shots, including a mix of challenges including carrying hazards, skirting them, laying up short of them, fitting a shot pattern to them, finding a narrow landing zone between them, or landing with either spin and control, or less spin for more roll.  There are an almost unlimited potential combinations of the above.  The design of carry hazards requires coordination with all tee placements to entice a heroic “carry” shot for short hitters, while also providing challenges for longer hitters, which often entails “stretching” fairway hazards length to cover more ground.
 
Other considerations include placing hazards where they will be:
·       “In play.”  Lightly used hazards are probably unnecessary and often removed after a few years of play.  On the other hand, golfers complain about hazards that see “too much action,” which can also create vocal demand for their removal.  After 40 years as a golf course architect, I am still not sure what constitutes the “right” amount of hazard use, probably because that definition is often based on how many a player finds vs. how many are found by his competitors.
·       Visible from the tee.  (and then built to be aesthetic)
·       Act as directional guides or aiming points – Sand bunkers and mounds often help direct the player’s eye and eliminate potential confusion.
·       On occasion, act as “save hazards”, keeping shots from a worse fate.  Examples include linear sand bunkers between the fairway and a lake.
·       Providing visual play and visual variety, a characteristic of great designs!
 
We leave the first consideration last – Placement may start with conceptual thinking and math analysis, but in the end, hazards should be placed where the landforms allow, usually meaning a gentle up slope facing the tee.  I have seen fairway bunkers placed on downhill (away from the tee and golfer) slopes and the fill for the support backing mounds can run forever, requiring huge amounts of hauled in fill.  If huge earthmoving is required, the bunker is probably in the wrong place.
 
Nature doesn’t always put landforms exactly where we want, but it doesn’t really matter.  Golfers aren’t that consistent, and fairway hazards of even normal size stretch 20-40 yards or more, catching golfers of different lengths – some after rolling and long hitters on the fly - which are subject to plug lies, so sand bunkers placed in the longer ranges of landing zones may somewhat equalize the penalty for lesser players.


New Note: I obviously disagree with Low about putting bunkers where shots tend to land.  That would qualify, IMHO, as a bunker that sees too much action. 
 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2023, 12:13:55 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2023, 12:12:43 PM »
Leeds would walk the course with a handful of white stones in his pocket looking for areas where there were lots of divots.  He would toss the stones in those areas and the next day there would be a bunker.  Fownes added countless bunkers to his golf course in the areas where he expected golfers to play their shots.  It was a very penal style of design.


Mark


Is that not more or less what Low and Paton did on the 4th hole at Woking ie. place a bunker to where players would like to play their shot ? Would that not be strategic design ?


Niall




I think it really depends on what's on the ground. If there's a large, concave hollow, balls will gather there regardless of whether that's the best place to play the next shot from. Point being that depending on the contours and layout of the course, it could be strategic or it could be penal. Anyway, I question the wisdom of designing a golf course in this way. Also, the orignal story about Fownes that I'd heard/read sure seems apocryphal.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2023, 12:46:03 PM »

My conversation with Brooks Koepka switched my thinking on this.  If a fairway bunker is only 100 or 150 yards from the green, it's pretty pointless, because it doesn't make much difference to a very good player . . .


I don't understand why it's pointless. Aren't courses designed with every caliber of golfer in mind?   I think a fairway bunker at 150 could affect the way most average players play the hole, especially if it has some depth. Is it not okay to have a feature that penalizes the less than very good golfer even if it doesn't affect the very good player?


Yes, it's still okay to have bunkers for other reasons, and most of my courses do.  But I just don't fool myself into thinking they really matter for the good player.  In fact, the conversation has tilted me in the direction of wanting to build courses where the bunkers are dangerous enough to matter, so we are going to try that on two of the courses we are just getting started on:  that style wouldn't have fit in Pinehurst or Sand Valley, but I think it will in Texas and Florida (!).


Got it. Thanks

Mark_Fine

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2023, 07:52:39 PM »
Charlie,
There are lots of stories about Fownes.  Some may or may not be folklore.  One I know is true is about the famous Church Pews bunker at Oakmont.  When members were complaining that there were too many bunkers at Oakmont, Emil Loeffler was sent out to deal with it and he cleverly combined a whole series of bunkers into one large bunker separated by the strips of turf.  So much for lots of bunkers at least on that hole :)


Niall,
Some of what Fownes and Leeds did was penal and some was strategic,… A bunker might on one day be strategic to one golfer, penal to another, heroic for next golfer, and not even in play for the following player.  And then a day later when the wind is blowing 20 mph, everything changes regarding that same bunker for everyone.   

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2023, 08:28:36 PM »
But I just don't fool myself into thinking they really matter for the good player.


What matters are the lips! Unless the lie in the bunker is bad, of course.

Niall C

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2023, 11:07:14 AM »
Niall,
Some of what Fownes and Leeds did was penal and some was strategic,… A bunker might on one day be strategic to one golfer, penal to another, heroic for next golfer, and not even in play for the following player.  And then a day later when the wind is blowing 20 mph, everything changes regarding that same bunker for everyone.


Mark


It appears you now recognise that a bunker doesn't need to play the same for each player and therefore presumably no need for multiple tees so that it does ?  ;)


With regards to Fownes's methods, as you know it was standard in the early pre-golden age of golf architecture for the course to be bunkered after it had been in play a while so nothing new there. It seems to me that whether the bunker was penal really would depend on the design of the hole and the part the bunker played in it, but placing a bunker where players had hitherto been playing to wouldn't necessarily make the hole penal. Mind you, if he was constantly going round adding to the bunkers that were already there then its hard to imagine the design of the hole ending up being anything other than penal.


Niall

Niall C

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2023, 11:32:31 AM »

New Note: I obviously disagree with Low about putting bunkers where shots tend to land.  That would qualify, IMHO, as a bunker that sees too much action. 
 



Jeff


In fairness to Low and Paton I think I hardly did their design ideas justice with my earlier post. The point about the bunkering at Woking was that they recognised that a drive further to the right, near the OB was the perfect line in to the green while a drive to the left, which was completely safe as far as risking OB was concerned but gave a much poorer line into the green. They also recognised that for most golfers there was a middle line which wasn't completely safe but did give a decent line in. It was in this area that they put the bunker thereby making the golfer have to decide one way or the other.


As to how much action the bunker gets ? Well to be honest I've no idea. It wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't as much as you think. However I'm not sure that should be the metric anyway for deciding its worth, although I do appreciate busy bunkers require a good bit more maintenance. To my way of thinking, what makes a bunker worthwhile is how much of a bearing, if any, that it has on how golfers attempt to play the hole.


Niall     

Tom_Doak

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2023, 11:38:38 AM »

As to how much action the bunker gets ? Well to be honest I've no idea. It wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't as much as you think. However I'm not sure that should be the metric anyway for deciding its worth, although I do appreciate busy bunkers require a good bit more maintenance. To my way of thinking, what makes a bunker worthwhile is how much of a bearing, if any, that it has on how golfers attempt to play the hole.



I doubt the bunker actually sees much play, because it's relatively small, and even when players push or pull their tee shot toward it by accident, not so many of those balls will wind up in the sand.  As you say, it's whether the bunker influences how golfers attempt to play the hole, that matters.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is it unusual to have fairway bunkers far from the green?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2023, 12:04:54 PM »

New Note: I obviously disagree with Low about putting bunkers where shots tend to land.  That would qualify, IMHO, as a bunker that sees too much action. 
 


Jeff

In fairness to Low and Paton I think I hardly did their design ideas justice with my earlier post. The point about the bunkering at Woking was that they recognised that a drive further to the right, near the OB was the perfect line in to the green while a drive to the left, which was completely safe as far as risking OB was concerned but gave a much poorer line into the green. They also recognised that for most golfers there was a middle line which wasn't completely safe but did give a decent line in. It was in this area that they put the bunker thereby making the golfer have to decide one way or the other.


As to how much action the bunker gets? Well to be honest I've no idea. It wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't as much as you think. However, I'm not sure that should be the metric anyway for deciding its worth, although I do appreciate busy bunkers require a good bit more maintenance. To my way of thinking, what makes a bunker worthwhile is how much of a bearing, if any, that it has on how golfers attempt to play the hole.


Niall   


Niall, Fair enough.  And I agree that not many fw bunkers see a lot of action.  As noted in an earlier post somewhere, a bunker is no more than 0.1 AC, while fw and rough are typically 2-3 acres each, and % %-wise, it just won't be a lot in the typical day of shot dispersions.  And, I really have only removed a few bunkers that caught too many players, usually on the front right of greens, vs. many, many bunker removals and size reductions that cause too much maintenance.



As I mentioned, most of us gca types have done a lot of bunker reduction studies lately, and I have been lucky to get called back to some of my best designs.  They always hesitate, figuring the original architect might be too resistant to removing any bunkers from a good design.  Tom Doak may be in a different stratosphere, but for most of us and our projects, designing a bunker with a high probability of low function is something we avoid.  I always said if a bunker is not totally necessary, it will be removed within 10 years by superintendents more concerned with ever rising costs over the original design intent.


And, in some cases, the design intent is somewhat temporary anyway, such as when we design a bunker to look good to adjoining lots for home sales, and then those homes sell, negating the need for at least that part of the bunker that was put in for aesthetics.  Or at a tournament course like ANGC where experience tells them where they should move bunkers to.  Not to mention that the days of massive bunkering are over, given the cost of construction and excellent maintenance.  As an example, prior to about 2005, my typical bunker SF was probably 100,000 SF.  After that, it was 50,000 SF, with 75,000 for more high falutin designs.  Another old saying is that some architects are minimalist by nature, and most others are forced into it, LOL.


In short, as shown in my article which only briefly describes some of the thought patterns behind placing bunkers, we really strive to make each bunker count these days.  In most periods of history, golf is a tough biz, but when times are good, we easily forget all the mildly desirable bunkers that have been removed.  Which is nothing new really.  Basically, MacKenzie set the pattern in the 1930's during the depression (including ANGC) that most of us follow today.


The short version
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach