OT-UK golf

[Adam Lawrence]

Obviously, the number of two ball clubs in the UK is incredibly small. Most British golfers will never have played foursomes, and most of those that have will have done so once a year in a club competition.

BUT

The tiny number of clubs where foursomes is the order of the day are clearly extremely influential in the way that British golf is perceived around the world. I think I would also argue that, in many ways, they are among the nicest places to be a member and play your golf. Obviously part of this is that foursomes clubs are typically old, exclusive and high end, but the speed of play is a major part of that too.

I've mentioned Huntercombe in this respect here before I think. It is essentially a pure two ball club, perhaps not _quite_ as fastidious in this as Rye, where Greg Ramsay, Martin Ebert and I once played as a three ball. Martin had obtained special permission from the secretary for this, but still spent the entire round looking anxiously over his shoulder in case some members might see us and take exception to our format. Back to Huntercombe. It is, I think, the most rigorous club I know about quick play. In the past, if you were in the habit of taking more than three hours to play a round, you could expect a stiff letter from the secretary. My friend Marcus Lovelock now occupies that seat, and I'm sure he's far too nice to send such letters, but still...

Royal West Norfolk (Brancaster) is another of the most fastidious clubs about two ball play, and the only one I know that offers visitors a green fee discount if they play foursomes. If not, you can play (two ball) singles, but you pay full rate.

[Sean_A]

Obviously, the number of two ball clubs in the UK is incredibly small. Most British golfers will never have played foursomes, and most of those that have will have done so once a year in a club competition.


BUT


The tiny number of clubs where foursomes is the order of the day are clearly extremely influential in the way that British golf is perceived around the world. I think I would also argue that, in many ways, they are among the nicest places to be a member and play your golf. Obviously part of this is that foursomes clubs are typically old, exclusive and high end, but the speed of play is a major part of that too.


I've mentioned Huntercombe in this respect here before I think. It is essentially a pure two ball club, perhaps not _quite_ as fastidious in this as Rye, where Greg Ramsay, Martin Ebert and I once played as a three ball. Martin had obtained special permission from the secretary for this, but still spent the entire round looking anxiously over his shoulder in case some members might see us and take exception to our format. Back to Huntercombe. It is, I think, the most rigorous club I know about quick play. In the past, if you were in the habit of taking more than three hours to play a round, you could expect a stiff letter from the secretary. My friend Marcus Lovelock now occupies that seat, and I'm sure he's far too nice to send such letters, but still...


Royal West Norfolk (Brancaster) is another of the most fastidious clubs about two ball play, and the only one I know that offers visitors a green fee discount if they play foursomes. If not, you can play (two ball) singles, but you pay full rate.

I think a major discrepancy between pace of play today and back in the day is mainly down to more 2ball play back then. People assume 4balls have always been the main type of play.

Ciao

[Craig Disher]

The speed of play with foursomes is a given. If played correctly, it's difficult to finish in over 3 hours. I think the best feature of foursomes and perhaps why it became a fixture at private clubs with a harmonious membership is its social aspect. The continuous, friendly interaction among the players is something that 4-ball can't match, especially if golf carts are involved. As for spacing of tee times, Rye has none. If groups arrive at the same time, play proceeds after a civil discussion. When events are scheduled, e.g. charity outings or inter-club matches, the first tee is reserved for as long as needed.

[Ken Moum]

Obviously, the number of two ball clubs in the UK is incredibly small. Most British golfers will never have played foursomes, and most of those that have will have done so once a year in a club competition.

While I agree with you, perhaps you underestimate the number of Scots who travel regularly to play in mixed foursomes or, more likely, greensomes open comps.


Just this week my wife and I played in one at Anstruther with a member and her brother (a long-time St. Andrews caddy) and he said "She's my manager, she lets me know when we're playing and I make myself available."  And we're entered in another one this Sunday at Nairn Dunbar.


While most clubs might only have one or two a year, the entrants we see from other clubs suggests that some people play in several a year.


And I can assure you that playing alternate shot with your spouse prepares you for anything.

[John Mayhugh]

think the best feature of foursomes and perhaps why it became a fixture at private clubs with a harmonious membership is its social aspect. The continuous, friendly interaction among the players is something that 4-ball can't match, especially if golf carts are involved.

This is a great point. In foursomes - especially where courses are set up for walking ahead - you spend more time with your opponent than your partner.

[Rob Marshall]

Rob M. -

Out of curiosity, where in England is your friend a member?

DT

Club about an hour outside London. I don't remember the name.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Foursomes works only when the whole course is playing foursomes (quite obviously). Then for most clubs, it is a considerably faster game than straight two-ball singles due to walking paths from green to fairway. Greensomes can be slow.


Aside from a four round winter league, my club effectively plays foursomes as their main form of competition on every Saturday through the winter. Another aspect not mentioned are the huge number of formal (social) matches that occur between traditional clubs in GB&I and are almost always 36 hole foursomes with lunches and dinners.


Couple of two-ball clubs not mentioned yet are West Sussex and Royal Ashdown Forest.

[John Mayhugh]

I've mentioned Huntercombe in this respect here before I think. It is essentially a pure two ball club, perhaps not _quite_ as fastidious in this as Rye, where Greg Ramsay, Martin Ebert and I once played as a three ball. Martin had obtained special permission from the secretary for this, but still spent the entire round looking anxiously over his shoulder in case some members might see us and take exception to our format.

[Adam Lawrence]

Obviously, the number of two ball clubs in the UK is incredibly small. Most British golfers will never have played foursomes, and most of those that have will have done so once a year in a club competition.

And I can assure you that playing alternate shot with your spouse prepares you for anything.

Yeah, any relationship that can survive a mixed gruesomes is for the long haul...

[Thomas Dai]

And I can assure you that playing alternate shot with your spouse prepares you for anything.

Words like brave, heroic, undaunted, fearless and courageous all come to mind.
 
Atb

[Wayne_Kozun]

When you have a mixed foursomes match what tees do you play from?  Do you tee off from the forward tees when the woman is teeing off, and the regular tees when the man is teeing off?  Can one team have the women tee off on the odd holes and men on the even and the other team do the opposite?

[David_Tepper]

Wayne K. -

Based on my experience playing mixed foursomes, the event format will announce that men will tee off on the odd numbered holes and women on the even holes (unless the men tee off on the evens and women tee off on the odds). Each team cannot decide for themselves.

DT

[Adrian_Stiff]

When you have a mixed foursomes match what tees do you play from?  Do you tee off from the forward tees when the woman is teeing off, and the regular tees when the man is teeing off?  Can one team have the women tee off on the odd holes and men on the even and the other team do the opposite?

Yes if the woman tees off at the 1st (odd holes) she plays Ladies tees for the odd holes.
Foursomes is largely unpopular with 90% of golfers in the UK in the 2020s. The new breed want a FULL GAME. Time is precious why play half a game.
There are probably only 25 UK golf clubs that are stuck on 2 ball/foursome play..so 1%.
County and Elite golf still play foursomes and yes its quick a round if finishing with a say 5 and 4 win takes 2 hours. We have 4 scratch teams in the league, everyone enjoys playing the foursomes matches start at 1730, May-August. Great team bonding.
Maybe 50% of clubs would have an annual foursome competition in the Calendar.
We don't have a foursome competition but we do have a BLUESOME, wherby you play 2 shots then select which ball you play alternate strokes from.

[Mark Pearce]

This week is the second week of the summer where Elie has a week long foursomes knockout competition, with two rounds a day until a winner emerges.  Both are very popular competitions.  But Elie is not a two ball club and most casual play is in four balls.  Medal play is in three balls.


The Northumberland has a couple of foursomes medals (one early in the season, one later) and the major pairs knockout is foursomes.  Again, not a two ball club, casual play in 4s, medals in 3s.


At Muirfield the danger that singles matches face is being followed by a club match (foursomes 36 hole matches arranged at dinners where wagers are placed on results).  It really is bad news if you hold a club match up and, as most are played with caddies, they travel very fast (2 hrs 30mins for 18 holes is far from unusual). 

[Ken Moum]

When you have a mixed foursomes match what tees do you play from?  Do you tee off from the forward tees when the woman is teeing off, and the regular tees when the man is teeing off?  Can one team have the women tee off on the odd holes and men on the even and the other team do the opposite?

Believe it or not, my wife and I got married so we could play in the South Dakota State Husband and Wife Championship.  We'd been living together for about 5 years and in 1993 I asked, "Is the state tournament a good enough reason to get married.?"


She said yes and next year we'll celebrate 30 years.


But you already have the answer to your question.


However, the added pressure of that format explains the popularity of greensomes where you both tee off and pick one.


Chapman,  where you have two balls in play for two shots is popular in the US.

[Kalen Braley]

Honestly,

The concept sounds like a fantastic one.

1)  Its your home club, so presumably you've already (or will) play every hole hundreds of times anyways, so you aren't "missing out"
2)  Drastically cut down on round (and waiting around) time
3)  Far easier to get in a 36 hole day in AND do other activities
4)  Spend more time in the pub busting your mate's balls..

And If the tourists don't like it, well they can go elsewhere. 

[Wayne_Kozun]

I have played the Chapman more than pure alternate shots - I am in Canada.  I like it and it can be similar pressure, especially if a minimum number of tee shots from each player.

[Mark Chaplin]

I probably play 75% foursomes throughout the year, this year I was elected into the Senior Golfers Society and they play foursomes pretty much exclusively so nothing will change.
We have a few members rumbling about changing to 3/4 ball play, as Adrian says two ball clubs are 1% of the market so the disgruntled have lots of options if they are unhappy. Deal does have a members fourball better ball competition, in January, 4.30hrs in the cold puts most people off the format for another year!
Brancaster have a complicated greenfee structure, foursomes/foursome is obviously cheapest but foursomes/2ball is cheaper that 2ball/foursomes. I believe this is to reduce pressure on the tee during the busier morning times.

[Sean_A]

I probably play 75% foursomes throughout the year, this year I was elected into the Senior Golfers Society and they play foursomes pretty much exclusively so nothing will change.
We have a few members rumbling about changing to 3/4 ball play, as Adrian says two ball clubs are 1% of the market so the disgruntled have lots of options if they are unhappy. Deal does have a members fourball better ball competition, in January, 4.30hrs in the cold puts most people off the format for another year!
Brancaster have a complicated greenfee structure, foursomes/foursome is obviously cheapest but foursomes/2ball is cheaper that 2ball/foursomes. I believe this is to reduce pressure on the tee during the busier morning times.

And to encourage visitors to play 4somes and not clog up the course for members. It's quite clever.

Ciao

[Richard Fisher]

A variant of this foursomes thread seems to pop up every couple of years: last time Ally M and I and others became involved in a discussion about 'when did foursomes become posh?': Glad that mixed foursomes have been mentioned as these do remain a club staple in many places that don't naturally have much foursome play, certainly outside of specific competitions

I always think that Foursomes is a perfect 'Category Two' game (i.e handicaps 6-10, in old money) and societies (like the Senior GS) with lots of Category Two golfers seem to manifest that well: it does presuppose that the golfer is playing quite a bit.

The UK amateur season used effectively to start with foursomes (Sunningdale Foursomes, followed for some by the Halford Hewitt and/or the Winchilsea Foursomes at RStD) and end with foursomes (the Worplesdon Mixed beloved of the Wethereds and B Darwin). But this old world is, I fully appreciate, a zillion miles from the sort of reality that Adrian and others are describing.

[JohnVDB]

What intervals do the 2 ball clubs tee off at?

8 minutes at Dornoch.  First hole is a short par 4 and the previous group has frequently already headed to the second by that time,

[Mark Pearce]

What intervals do the 2 ball clubs tee off at?

On member days (i.e. NOT Tuesdays and Thursdays), the HCEG doesn't have anything as uncouth and modern as tee times.  After lunch (almost the only time the 1st tee is likely to be occupied by more than one group), you simply wait until the previous group is out of range.  In well over 50 games there, I have never been conscious of either being held up, or holding anyone else up.

[Brian Finn]

I just spent eight days in Wales, where several times we played foursomes.  Over two days at Royal Porthcawl, 3 out of my 4 rounds were foursomes, as the members hosting our group play almost exclusively in that format.  Most of them were members at other 2 ball only courses, such as Rye, Brancaster, RSG, et al.  There were some spirited discussions among the broader group on the topic of 4 ball vs. 2 ball play, but the advantage of pace of play is undeniable.  After several trips to the UK, including visits to some 2 ball clubs, I have really grown to love it, and we have even started playing it at home (when we can get out at a time when we will not be held up).

[JohnVDB]

I remember playing Southerness in 1995 and came across an 8-some. With the players not hitting from the tee going up the fairway, it was hard for the two of us to catch them.

[Kalen Braley]

As a high capper who has never played this format, I'm curious from a practical perspective how making ur way up the fairway works. Especially in the UK where they don't exactly have many trees and such to take cover...

How does one protect themselves from wayward tee balls?  Or is there a minimum HC requirement?