OT-UK golf

[Rob Marshall]

A friend of mine who has lived in England for 25- 30 years was in town and I had him out at my club. He was telling me that at his club 2 balls start on the 1st and 4 balls on the back nine. He also told me that there are clubs that either you play in a 2 ball or you have to play alternate shot in a foursome. No wonder the Euro's seem to dominate in foursomes.


What is the rational for having to play alternate shot? Pace of play?

[John Mayhugh]

A friend of mine who has lived in England for 25- 30 years was in town and I had him out at my club. He was telling me that at his club 2 balls start on the 1st and 4 balls on the back nine. He also told me that there are clubs that either you play in a 2 ball or you have to play alternate shot in a foursome. No wonder the Euro's seem to dominate in foursomes.


What is the rational for having to play alternate shot? Pace of play?

It's pretty simple. Two balls play faster than four. If you want to have four people in the group, then alternate shot is the only way to do it while only playing two balls. It's a cultural thing that I really appreciate.

[Dan_Callahan]

If you are playing alternate shot, do you get half off on the greens fee?

[John Mayhugh]

If you are playing alternate shot, do you get half off on the greens fee?

Not sure if this is a joke or a serious question.

People play foursomes because they want to. I'm not aware of any club that makes guests play foursomes UNLESS the guests insist on all four players in the same group. If you are at a two ball club, then insisting on having four people in a group means foursomes. But no one is making you play that way (two two-balls is an option) so I doubt anyone gives a discount.

Two ball and foursomes play is a reflection of a club's culture. No outsider is forced to imbibe as there are plenty of other playing options out there. As with dogs being allowed, not everyone agrees, but to me it's a sign of a place that I'm going to enjoy.

[Rob Marshall]

If you are playing alternate shot, do you get half off on the greens fee?

Not sure if this is a joke or a serious question.

People play foursomes because they want to. I'm not aware of any club that makes guests play foursomes UNLESS the guests insist on all four players in the same group. If you are at a two ball club, then insisting on having four people in a group means foursomes. But no one is making you play that way (two two-balls is an option) so I doubt anyone gives a discount.
Two ball and foursomes play is a reflection of a club's culture. No outsider is forced to imbibe as there are plenty of other playing options out there. As with dogs being allowed, not everyone agrees, but to me it's a sign of a place that I'm
[size=78%]going to enjoy.[/size]

What is the rational for being a two ball club? Pace of play?

[John Mayhugh]

Rob,
In my initial response, I said two balls play faster than four. So yes, it's pace of play.

There are not that many two-ball clubs overall, so plenty of options for those who would rather play a four-ball. Courses that are predominantly two ball include many places worth seeing: Muirfield, Rye, Brancaster, Sandwich, & Deal. All but Rye, I think, will accommodate four balls on a couple of days a week, though. Pretty sure that West Sussex & Huntercombe are two balls only as well.

[Thomas Dai]

The popularity of foursomes alternate shot golf in England and the rest of the U.K. is something of a myth.
Sure at some clubs it’s two-balls or foursomes only but the proportion of the circa 2,500 clubs in the U.K. (circa 2,000 in England) that insist on this, insist 7 days per week, 52 weeks of the year being key, is very small, likely less than 100 I suggest, probably even less than that.
Most clubs will probably have occasional men’s, women’s and/or mixed foursomes events, maybe a couple per year probably in the winter for speed of play in the cold and might have a foursomes pairs knockout competition but that’ll likely be about it.
Greenfee wise of the two-balls or foursomes only courses I’ve been too or checked-up on it would seem that playing foursomes does have an effect on the greenfee but others posting herein probably have more knowledge than me of this aspect.

As to why the Euros do so well in foursomes, it needs to be understood that the Euro Team is drawn from numerous countries in Europe as well as England/U.K. so an analysis of how much foursomes is played in the other various Euro nations would be useful. I doubt it’s significan or prolific.
Atb

[Niall C]

Rob


It is a minority of clubs that are two ball clubs and they tend to be older traditional clubs like Honourable Company, Royal West Norfolk etc. Even at Muirfield 4 ball play is permitted in the morning but two ball only in the afternoon (or is it the other way round ?). As John, says, if played properly it should be a good bit quicker, but the reason for it is mainly tradition. I'm certainly not aware of a club founded after WWI that is a two ball club.


As to greenfees, I suspect it varies.


Niall

[John Handley]

Many clubs in the UK that I have seen require two balls or foursomes, that is primarily in the morning times for pace of play.  They typically have a nice, formal lunch and then allow four balls to play in the afternoon.  The interesting thing that I have experienced, is Muirfield does this in reverse. 

[JohnVDB]

Many clubs in the UK that I have seen require two balls or foursomes, that is primarily in the morning times for pace of play.  They typically have a nice, formal lunch and then allow four balls to play in the afternoon.  The interesting thing that I have experienced, is Muirfield does this in reverse.

At Royal Dornoch, the first few times each morning on the Championship course are two ball only.  5e number of times varies on the season so as not to use up to many times when daylight gets shorter.

[Jeff Schley]

Are there any 2 ball clubs in the US?  I have heard of some morning tee times being twosomes, but not any majority of tee times.
Actually the superintendents I believe prefer to have a full fourball tee off in the morning so the maintenance crew isn't pushed in the morning.

[jeffwarne]

If you are playing alternate shot, do you get half off on the greens fee?

Not sure if this is a joke or a serious question.

People play foursomes because they want to. I'm not aware of any club that makes guests play foursomes UNLESS the guests insist on all four players in the same group. If you are at a two ball club, then insisting on having four people in a group means foursomes. But no one is making you play that way (two two-balls is an option) so I doubt anyone gives a discount.

Two ball and foursomes play is a reflection of a club's culture. No outsider is forced to imbibe as there are plenty of other playing options out there. As with dogs being allowed, not everyone agrees, but to me it's a sign of a place that I'm going to enjoy.

LOL.
I just played foursomes(alternate shot with 4 people) at a club in Wales. My wife and my son's girlfriend were our respective partners. neither is a golfer, though both can hit a golf ball.
We played in 3 hours, not particularly fast for foursomes,but very fast given we had two beginners and multiple holes were won with double bogie.
It was an absolute blast.
I'm 100% sure we were the only people who played foursomes at that club that day!
To be fair, I only saw one other group on the course that day, despite it being 68 degrees and sunny.




Went to the website, paid 4 green fees and showed up and played.
Pro shop was closed and they played out of my bag(son is a lefty-and they only hit 3 different clubs)
It didn't hurt that it was 90 pounds for 4 people to play.


With the way golf is going speedwise(slower every year), it's amazing to me more people/clubs don't enjoy foursomes.Especially with newer players.


We do have 2 ball speed slots at our club from 7:00 to 8 AM.
Always sold out.
Makes me think we should offer a foursome option during those speed slots.
Foursomes played properly, are faster than a twosome because the players hitting the second shot walk straight from the previous green to the next fairway and it can become a bit like a relay race.

[Ben Sims]

One of the best reasons (among dozens) to be a member of UK club is the two-ball only tee times for the first hour or two every morning. Just dreamy.

[Rob Marshall]

'With the way golf is going speedwise(slower every year)"

My game is usually the first two groups off on Sat and Sunday mornings. The guys love to chirp about how fast they play. Usually 3:00 to 3:20. On Sunday due to conceded putts becoming a problem I said EVERYTHING goes in the hole. We play 3 out of 4 balls. All of a sudden they didn't play so fast..............Still ahead of the groups behind us but probably 3:45.

[Until a few years ago during prime time we didn't allow two balls. Never made sense to me that two guys had to stand around waiting for a single when they would take the same space as a foursome. They were the guys that were going to end up standing around waiting on the groups in front of them.

Our club has no tee times.

[Padraig Dooley]

If you are playing alternate shot, do you get half off on the greens fee?

It could be a way to promote Foursomes more, pay 2/3rds of a green fee.

It could also be said that if less shots means less of a green fee, then shouldn't the scratch golfer pay less than the 36 handicap?

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I played Rye, I was told it is primarily a two-ball club. I played as a two-ball, and a foursome playing alternate shot just flew past us. By the time the drive hit the ground, his partner was there to hit it. Sunndigdale has a two-ball course and a four-ball course that shifts between the two courses. At least it did when I was last there.

[Thomas Dai]

One of the best reasons (among dozens) to be a member of UK club is the two-ball only tee times for the first hour or two every morning. Just dreamy.

There are circa 2,500 golf clubs in the U.K. I wonder what proportion operate as above? Some do although not necessarily every day of every week but in overall terms not that many. In fact I suggest it’s relatively few.
Golf in general in the U.K. is not necessarily what it may appear from overseas nor what is written in magazines or in web-blogs or what visits to some of the elite clubs or near-elite may indicate.
Caddies to provide advice and tell amusing tall tales? Nope. Dogs along with every group? Nope. Starter on the first tee? Nope. All day catering? Nope. Halfway houses serving delicious sausage sandwiches? Nope. All of these may be available at the occasional club but disappointment awaits if they are expected at all of the circa 2,500 clubs and courses in the U.K.
Myths abound as I reckon they likely do about golf clubs and courses in all countries.
Atb

[Mark Pearce]

Even at Muirfield 4 ball play is permitted in the morning but two ball only in the afternoon (or is it the other way round ?).

No it's not.  4 ball play is allowed in the morning on Tuesdays and Thursdays.  No members play those days, which are the visitor days.  On member only days HCEG is strictly 2-ball, all day.

[Mark Pearce]

When I played Rye, I was told it is primarily a two-ball club. I played as a two-ball, and a foursome playing alternate shot just flew past us. By the time the drive hit the ground, his partner was there to hit it. Sunndigdale has a two-ball course and a four-ball course that shifts between the two courses. At least it did when I was last there.

Everr green at Muirfield has two paths leading from it.  One to the next tee and one to the next fairway (or green for the par 3s), so that the players not hitting the tee shot can head straight to their next shot.

[Ben Sims]

One of the best reasons (among dozens) to be a member of UK club is the two-ball only tee times for the first hour or two every morning. Just dreamy.

There are circa 2,500 golf clubs in the U.K. I wonder what proportion operate as above? Some do although not necessarily every day of every week but in overall terms not that many. In fact I suggest it’s relatively few.

I’ll concede the point, if you’ll concede that here in my homeland that in comparison to the UK few, in the US it’s none. At least that I’m aware.


My home club four-balls take 4 hour plus. The club expectation is 4:10. It’s brutal. I really dig the idea of early morning two-balls or foursomes.

[Daryl David]

One of the best reasons (among dozens) to be a member of UK club is the two-ball only tee times for the first hour or two every morning. Just dreamy.

There are circa 2,500 golf clubs in the U.K. I wonder what proportion operate as above? Some do although not necessarily every day of every week but in overall terms not that many. In fact I suggest it’s relatively few.

I’ll concede the point, if you’ll concede that here in my homeland that in comparison to the UK few, in the US it’s none. At least that I’m aware.


My home club four-balls take 4 hour plus. The club expectation is 4:10. It’s brutal. I really dig the idea of early morning two-balls or foursomes.

The problem is the expectation. 4:10!  If you tell all golfers the expectation is 3:30, eventually you will get to that being the norm. What idiot decided on 4:10?  Must have be the same idiot that decided 4:20 was the right time at a club I recently played at. 

[Rob Marshall]

Hideout has right on the carts that play is expected to be 3:30 max. Never played there in more than that.

[David_Tepper]

Rob M. -

Out of curiosity, where in England is your friend a member?

DT

[Joe_Tucholski]

What intervals do the 2 ball clubs tee off at?

[Ben Sims]

What intervals do the 2 ball clubs tee off at?

Looks like seven minutes at our club in the early two-ball window.