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Wayne_Kozun

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This was part of a memo released by the tour today. So it looks like there will be battle with the USGA and R&A on one side and the tour et al on the other side. Unless the USGA and R&A back down.

JohnVDB

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2023, 01:36:23 PM »
This was part of a memo released by the tour today. So it looks like there will be battle with the USGA and R&A on one side and the tour et al on the other side. Unless the USGA and R&A back down.


Or Monahan is just trying to curry favor with the players who are angry at him right now.

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2023, 01:53:28 PM »
This was part of a memo released by the tour today. So it looks like there will be battle with the USGA and R&A on one side and the tour et al on the other side. Unless the USGA and R&A back down.


Or Monahan is just trying to curry favor with the players who are angry at him right now.
The timing does feel a bit strange and screams "I Don't Want To Be Fired!!"

Considering his backslide on the Saudi's and the comment that they will continue to collaborate with the USGA/R&A, I would not be surprised, if Jay is still employed by the PGA Tour, to hear a reversal of this stance in 2 years.

Pete_Pittock

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2023, 03:20:04 PM »
Imagine how the PGA players will feel when they have to retool for The Masters, the US Open and The Open, when those events require them to play the shorter ball.

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2023, 03:53:26 PM »
Imagine how the PGA players will feel when they have to retool for The Masters, the US Open and The Open, when those events require them to play the shorter ball.
From Rory McIlroy back in March:

"If the major championships somehow adopt this ball change and the PGA Tour doesn't, I think it widens that gap between PGA Tour golf and major championship golf...For me, the major championships are the biggest deal, so if the PGA Tour doesn't implement it, I might still play the model local rule ball because I know that that'll give me the best chance and the best preparation leading into the majors."

John Kavanaugh

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2023, 03:53:26 PM »
Maybe they saw a guy with a 109 mph swing speed win a major and decided the sky isn’t falling. Regulation never hurts the unregulatable.

Pat Burke

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2023, 01:05:17 AM »
Due only to my personal brand of insanity.


My thoughts are, LIV should announce they will play by the new USGa/RA rules for the protection of the game.




The chaos would be delicious.


This move is the first inkling that the players for now have enormous power for the first time in a looonnggg time.


For the record, I am against different rules for tour events. If it’s good for the game , roll it back for all.


Ive asked all along, what happens if the pga tour does not go along?.


Right now, this is quite simply, money (in the form of endorsement deals) and  Monnahan being in a weak position. 
It’s also IMO a very big deal to make everyone make such a huge change in equipment, and for many, equipment changes can be a third rail for players.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2023, 03:03:13 AM by Pat Burke »

Thomas Dai

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2023, 02:20:00 AM »
I recall there was a car bumper sticker that used to say something like "Would you buy a used car from this man?".

:)
atb

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2023, 01:51:23 PM »
For the record, I am against different rules for tour events. If it’s good for the game , roll it back for all.
But we have had different rules for tour events for a long time in various ways, including equipment.  The rules on allowable grooves on golf clubs have been different for high level golf vs the rest of us since 2010.  How is that substantially different than having different rules on golf balls?  Non tour plays can use different types of balls from hole to hole, they can't on the tour.


Then there are other rules that are less directly related to playing equipment, like viewfinders.

JohnVDB

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2023, 04:01:18 PM »
For the record, I am against different rules for tour events. If it’s good for the game , roll it back for all.
But we have had different rules for tour events for a long time in various ways, including equipment.  The rules on allowable grooves on golf clubs have been different for high level golf vs the rest of us since 2010.  How is that substantially different than having different rules on golf balls?  Non tour plays can use different types of balls from hole to hole, they can't on the tour.


Then there are other rules that are less directly related to playing equipment, like viewfinders.


Even the various professional organizations invoke different Model Local Rules.  For example, the PGA allows range finders at the PGA Championship. So, if the PGA Tour doesn’t want to restrict the ball, while the Masters, US Open and Open do, that’s their choice.


Anthony Butler

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2023, 10:37:28 AM »
Due only to my personal brand of insanity.


My thoughts are, LIV should announce they will play by the new USGa/RA rules for the protection of the game.




The chaos would be delicious.


This move is the first inkling that the players for now have enormous power for the first time in a looonnggg time.


For the record, I am against different rules for tour events. If it’s good for the game , roll it back for all.


Ive asked all along, what happens if the pga tour does not go along?.


Right now, this is quite simply, money (in the form of endorsement deals) and  Monnahan being in a weak position. 
It’s also IMO a very big deal to make everyone make such a huge change in equipment, and for many, equipment changes can be a third rail for players.


As a point of comparison, most other professional sports competitors do not get to choose the brand of ball they play with and - in the vast majority of these sports (tennis, soccer, football, baseball, lacrosse etc.) - the ball in play is dictated by brand relationships struck between the league and equipment manufacturers. At the same time, there has been a number of changes in the balls these sports organizations and the tournaments they run have put in play.

If you were watching Wimbledon in the 80/90s you will remember when serve and volleyers like McEnroe, Becker, Sampras and Edberg dominated, That went away when the lighter Slazenger ball was replaced by a hard court ball similar to the Wilson or Penn balls used at the US Open, which handed a huge advantage to all-court players like Djokovic and now Alcaraz.

I'm not convinced that scaling the golf ball back would change the competitive balance in golf to the same degree. For the pros, playing under a different set of equipment rules is more of a concern around the typical marketing structure and endorsements for the sport, where we amateurs can entertain the notion (fantasy?) that we play under the same rules and use the same equipment as the pros. 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2023, 07:17:25 PM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

Steve Lapper

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2023, 01:39:02 PM »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2023, 02:05:24 PM »
Would seem now is an excellent opportunity for the R&A/USGA/Masters to take advantage of the disharmony within the various tours both regular and break-away and up the ante considerably by say moving the start date for any rollback to earlier than the 2026 previously indicated and also targeting a more significant rollback.
atb

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2023, 02:26:25 PM »
Would seem now is an excellent opportunity for the R&A/USGA/Masters to take advantage of the disharmony within the various tours both regular and break-away and up the ante considerably by say moving the start date for any rollback to earlier than the 2026 previously indicated and also targeting a more significant rollback.
atb
Unless they already have alignment with the ball manufacturers, It would be hard to see them expediting the timeline. I'd imagine they'd also need at least 2 different makes of ball to avoid the optics of collusion within the activity.

If they say they're pushing everything up to start at Augutsta in 2024 and both Bridgestone and Srixon say they'll have a ball ready, Titlesit, Taylormade, and Callaway could not call foul if they choose not to match.

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2023, 03:36:25 PM »
I've argued elsewhere and I'll argue here
  • "We want to reduces the ball flight for pros because they are too good"
is an argument that is pre-framed as unfair to pros. Better arguments are:
  • "We want to slightly reduce ball density because a number of fans are injured by ball strikes in tournaments every year"
  • "We are concerned about course ecology and want to try to limit the heavy metal content of the polybutadiene in the balls used, so we are requiring natural rubber cores in our tournaments"
These are both perfectly reasonable arguments that end up reducing ball flight without immediately framing the argument in a way that makes you look like the bad guy.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2023, 05:03:34 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Kalen Braley

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2023, 04:29:18 PM »
Matt,

There is precedent for sports changing ball characteristics for integrity of the game.

- Baseball reduced the liveliness of the ball to both protect past records and to prevent expanding outfields
- Football also stopped letting teams manage the balls after Brady-gate to protect the integrity of the game.

I don't know why golf would be the bad guy for wanting to preserve its history and a true test of a player is using all 14 clubs in the bag, not just driver and wedges and the occasional 3 wood.

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2023, 04:53:27 PM »
There is precedent for sports changing ball characteristics for integrity of the game.

- Baseball reduced the liveliness of the ball to both protect past records and to prevent expanding outfields
- Football also stopped letting teams manage the balls after Brady-gate to protect the integrity of the game.

I don't know why golf would be the bad guy for wanting to preserve its history and a true test of a player is using all 14 clubs in the bag, not just driver and wedges and the occasional 3 wood.

Every time I talk about this to young folks at the local muni I come off like a grumpy old man. We now have grown men who grew up with composite drivers that hit like a trampoline. They think players today are just better, and that hitting the ball 300 yards is cool as hell. I really think the "we are trying to protect the integrity of the game" doesn't make a ton of sense when we've already made 8000 yard courses to accommodate the technology.

I obviously agree that we should at least do something. If we were concerned about protecting the integrity of the game, though, we would be focusing on the clubs, not the ball. Nerfing the compression of the golf ball, to me, really seems like a nonsensical way to fix the problem. Instead of slowing down the swing, forcing players to focus on contact, we're essentially doubling down on power being the dominant force in the game and further eliminating some of the potential downside of over-swinging (higher energy in the ball at least exaggerates errors).

This is why it makes the regulators are coming off like jerks. They aren't addressing the real concern (the new high velocity golf swing), and just want these players to hit the ball shorter distances, period. Thus, to me, if we're going to do it this way, we should at least add get some anti-injury or environmental benefit, since we aren't actually even going to address the root problem.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2023, 05:10:46 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2023, 05:44:48 PM »
Matt,

There is precedent for sports changing ball characteristics for integrity of the game.

- Baseball reduced the liveliness of the ball to both protect past records and to prevent expanding outfields
- Football also stopped letting teams manage the balls after Brady-gate to protect the integrity of the game.

I don't know why golf would be the bad guy for wanting to preserve its history and a true test of a player is using all 14 clubs in the bag, not just driver and wedges and the occasional 3 wood.
Athletics also changed the Javelin in 1984-86.  Javelin throws were becoming so long that there would soon be risk of impaling runners on the track and the javelin was landing to flat and skimming on the ground.  I think that is the closest analogy to golf.

Thomas Dai

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2023, 05:48:26 PM »
There’s a much bigger picture here.
Land and water usage for example, on a finite sized planet with finite resources yet with a population that has increased massively since the game became popular and continues to do so.
Golf uses a lot of space and other folks have their eyes on it.
And then there’s the safety aspects of on and off-course incidents and liabilities etc.
There are a lot of golf haters out there.
Far better that the golf authorities take the initiative themselves and take it now rather than have some golf hating or vested interest outside body impose less golf friendly limitations on the game we love and enjoy and for many provides a means of employment.
Atb

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2023, 06:12:27 PM »
Agreed and more land and water means more expensive as well as making the sport less sustainable from an environmental perspective.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2023, 09:43:45 PM »
Isn't the proposed rollback supposed to happen in 2026?


If Jay Monahan is still the commissioner of the PGA Tour in 2026, the TOUR is an even worse organization than I thought.  Otherwise, his position is 100% irrelevant to the discussion.


I'm betting that three of the four majors will have switched by then, and there will be a lot more sentiment among  the players to make regular TOUR events consistent with The Masters, the U.S. Open, and The Open Championship.


Jay's gotta go.  And maybe Seth Waugh, too, if the PGA of America is going to be the lone major that holds out.

jeffwarne

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2023, 09:01:54 AM »
Matt,

There is precedent for sports changing ball characteristics for integrity of the game.

- Baseball reduced the liveliness of the ball to both protect past records and to prevent expanding outfields
- Football also stopped letting teams manage the balls after Brady-gate to protect the integrity of the game.

I don't know why golf would be the bad guy for wanting to preserve its history and a true test of a player is using all 14 clubs in the bag, not just driver and wedges and the occasional 3 wood.
Athletics also changed the Javelin in 1984-86.  Javelin throws were becoming so long that there would soon be risk of impaling runners on the track and the javelin was landing to flat and skimming on the ground.  I think that is the closest analogy to golf.


Exactly, and common sense prevailed.
Just like it did when the entire rest of the golf world was forced to switch to a larger ball 50 years ago- a FAR bigger switch for players.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Rob Marshall

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2023, 04:15:32 PM »
Isn't the proposed rollback supposed to happen in 2026?


If Jay Monahan is still the commissioner of the PGA Tour in 2026, the TOUR is an even worse organization than I thought.  Otherwise, his position is 100% irrelevant to the discussion.


I'm betting that three of the four majors will have switched by then, and there will be a lot more sentiment among  the players to make regular TOUR events consistent with The Masters, the U.S. Open, and The Open Championship.


Jay's gotta go.  And maybe Seth Waugh, too, if the PGA of America is going to be the lone major that holds out.


Based on this article and the reason for his medical leave I'm guessing he won't be around in 2026. Life is too short.............


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2023/08/09/jay-monahan-one-regret-pga-tour-pif-alliance/
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Tim Martin

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Re: PGA Tour announces it will not support the rollback of the ball
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2023, 04:49:36 PM »
Isn't the proposed rollback supposed to happen in 2026?


If Jay Monahan is still the commissioner of the PGA Tour in 2026, the TOUR is an even worse organization than I thought.  Otherwise, his position is 100% irrelevant to the discussion.


I'm betting that three of the four majors will have switched by then, and there will be a lot more sentiment among  the players to make regular TOUR events consistent with The Masters, the U.S. Open, and The Open Championship.


Jay's gotta go.  And maybe Seth Waugh, too, if the PGA of America is going to be the lone major that holds out.


Based on this article and the reason for his medical leave I'm guessing he won't be around in 2026. Life is too short.............


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2023/08/09/jay-monahan-one-regret-pga-tour-pif-alliance/


Rob-I agree that he won’t be around in 2026. If I’m a bettor I think he’s out with a fat golden parachute by the end of the 2024 season if not earlier.