Pebble Beach says…

[Mike Hendren]

Hey Cypress Point, hold my beer.


I don’t understand why CPC is more highly rated.  I can only chalk it up to exclusivity and one iconic hole.  Please enlighten me.


Thanks.

[Charlie Ray]

I took my Dad to Pebble this Father's Day.  It was a very special trip.  However, after slowly driving past CPC, turning around, parking, standing on rocks to get a glimpse of #15/16 and #18... my dad said, 'Son, what's so special about this course...  we are playing Pebble Beach tomorrow." 
I immediately said, "Dad, this is one of the top courses in the world... it is on sand, MacKenzie is the designer, the routing transitions from Dunes, to Forest, to Cliffs, etc."
Dad responded, "but we are playing Pebble Beach in the morning."


At the airport I reflected on that conversation.  Lust can easily cause someone to underappreciate what they have. 
Pebble exceeded my lofty expectations both in the 'experience' and also in Architecture/Design.  (The lesser inland holes are good holes... and #11,12,13,14 all have commanding views of the Pacific that I did not foresee.)    In the CG Vol 2, Doak lists Pebble as one of the course under "one of a Kind."  Pebble is unique, and that is my lasting impression of Pebble.  Leaving 17-mile drive I adverted my eyes from CPC in attempt to be grateful for what I had experienced...   However, after 3 laps around the back-nine at Pasatiempo, I began wondering:  If CPC possesses better green complexes than this, than my lust of CPC is justified. [size=78%]   [/size]

[Mark_Fine]

It is not more highly rated, they are both 10’s in my book.  I’ve played roughly 15-20 that I would put in that category - as good as golf gets that I have seen on this planet.  I couldn’t tell you why any of these are better than the other, they are all just that good. 

[Tom_Doak]

Hey Cypress Point, hold my beer.

I don’t understand why CPC is more highly rated.  I can only chalk it up to exclusivity and one iconic hole.  Please enlighten me.

Mike:


I've actually written a book on the topic, so I won't bore you with a long argument here.  But, I do have a question:


How many times have you played Cypress Point?  And Pebble Beach?  I ask because the answer for most people at Cypress is "0" or "1", and I think that biases their judgment of the course.


P.S.  I don't think the difference is one iconic hole.  Pebble Beach has at least a couple of iconic holes.

[Steve Lapper]

Hey Cypress Point, hold my beer.

I don’t understand why CPC is more highly rated.  I can only chalk it up to exclusivity and one iconic hole.  Please enlighten me.

Mike:


I've actually written a book on the topic, so I won't bore you with a long argument here.  But, I do have a question:


How many times have you played Cypress Point?  And Pebble Beach?  I ask because the answer for most people at Cypress is "0" or "1", and I think that biases their judgment of the course.


P.S.  I don't think the difference is one iconic hole.  Pebble Beach has at least a couple of iconic holes.

I second Tom's take.



I'd simplify it a bit more: Pebble's inland holes don't hold a candle to CPC's.  CPC has a mix of iconic holes, several of them without the benefit of shoreline aesthetics. Furthermore, CPC's Mackenzie green complexes and bunkering are far more interesting than Pebbles. Pebble certainly has far more beachside holes and gets far more attention for those. CPC is vastly more subtle and sublime.

[Ira Fishman]

I took my Dad to Pebble this Father's Day.  It was a very special trip.  However, after slowly driving past CPC, turning around, parking, standing on rocks to get a glimpse of #15/16 and #18... my dad said, 'Son, what's so special about this course...  we are playing Pebble Beach tomorrow." 
I immediately said, "Dad, this is one of the top courses in the world... it is on sand, MacKenzie is the designer, the routing transitions from Dunes, to Forest, to Cliffs, etc."
Dad responded, "but we are playing Pebble Beach in the morning."


At the airport I reflected on that conversation.  Lust can easily cause someone to underappreciate what they have. 
Pebble exceeded my lofty expectations both in the 'experience' and also in Architecture/Design.  (The lesser inland holes are good holes... and #11,12,13,14 all have commanding views of the Pacific that I did not foresee.)    In the CG Vol 2, Doak lists Pebble as one of the course under "one of a Kind."  Pebble is unique, and that is my lasting impression of Pebble.  Leaving 17-mile drive I adverted my eyes from CPC in attempt to be grateful for what I had experienced...   However, after 3 laps around the back-nine at Pasatiempo, I began wondering:  If CPC possesses better green complexes than this, than my lust of CPC is justified. [size=78%]   [/size]

Charlie,


If you like Pasatiempo as much as I do (and it sounds like it), then beg, borrow, and steal (which pretty much is what I did) to play CPC.


Ira

[Matt_Cohn]

There's a lot right at Pebble Beach—if someone claims there's more right with Pebble than with Cypress, that's fair. But there's a lot wrong at Pebble, too—much more than is "wrong" at Cypress. Tees awkwardly squeezed by hedges and buildings (2, 4, 17) and roads (3, 16), oddly renovated bunkers (3, 6, 15), shrunken greens, weird trees (16?!), some arguably ordinary par 4's (1, 11, 15, 16), etc.


Comparatively, virtually everything at Cypress feels like it's exactly as it should be.

[Mike Hendren]

Tom, I’ve walked CPC once and played it once.  I’ve played PB once.  I give PB the slight edge based on the par 5’s and the unequalled stretch from 6 through 10. My most absurd opinions are that 12 at PB isn’t all that bad and that 17 is a borderline great iconic hole. 



I must also confess that I absolutely love the small size of PB’s greens and their contrast with the vastness of the sea.


I appreciate the comments and would like to hear more.


Thanks all.

[Mike Hendren]

Both routings are brilliant but I can’t help but wonder if Neville and Grant were tempted initially to site the 6th green at the 7th tee.  Fitting in the short 7th was a stroke of genius however. 

[Bruce Katona]

The Monterey Peninsula is a place where I could  retire to and call it a day.  Whether it be PB, Pasatiempo, Pacific Grove, Poppy Hills, Spyglass, Spanish Bay, etc. golf is there for the enjoyment.


I've enjoyed my visits to the area, which is why I could spend my later years there. That, and a place in Bermuda with a condo on Maui for the the chilly 2 months of winter.


Just a Powerball tix away.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
There is not much “wrong” with either golf course. 


Part of Tom Doak’s description of a “10” is “if you skipped one hole, you would miss something worth seeing.”  In all the 10’s I have played, None of them have 18 perfect golf holes, but I really wouldn’t want to miss any of them.  Even at CPC (which is definitely a 10) the first hole is a blind tee shot over a hedge that hides 17 mile drive and is flanked by the practice range that makes finding your golf ball if you hit your tee shot a tad right a real challenge.  How could a hole like that be any good but trust me you don’t want to miss it

Like most of the greatest golf courses, the more you play them, the more you realize just how special they are. I’ve played both courses over 30 times each.  They both also fit Tom’s “10” description - “If you haven’t seen all the courses in this category you don’t know how good golf architecture can get.”  Just like a great symphony isn’t two straight hours of a crescendo/climax, the greatest golf courses are much the same. 

[Tom_Doak]

Part of Tom Doak’s description of a “10” is “if you skipped one hole, you would miss something worth seeing.”

I probably shouldn't have written that, as there might be a few holes amongst the 10's that violate that rule.


The first hole at Pebble is eminently skip-worthy.  Then again, I only gave Pebble a 9 in the book.

[William_G]

we have a ton of of uninhabited mansions on our course and in the neighborhood now

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I know what you are saying about #1 at Pebble Beach but I will say the first tee is iconic given the proximity of where it located.  The hole is not a throw away like some have all but stated.  It has grown on me as it offers a risk/reward tee shot and the green is a perfect - welcome to Pebble Beach. 


I know you only gave Pebble Beach a 9 but even you can’t get every ranking right 

[Tommy Williamsen]

If I had ten plays, it would be 7-3 Cypress Point. It begins with a jaunt through the Delmonte Forest, then a romp in the dunes finishing with drama on the coast. PB is more difficult and has one of the best five-hole stretches in golf (6-10). For me, though, I have more options off the tee at CP, especially on the par fives. 8&9 are two of the best back-to-back short par fours in the country. 17 begs you to keep it close to the coastline. The greens at CP have more interest. I have to think my way around the course more. Would it test the best players in the world more than PB? No. Which is more fun for me? Cypress Point by a mile.

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy,
Hard to disagree with your logic but for me (especially first off with a caddie which I have done on both courses) it would be 5/5.  In situations like this they are not 10s, they are 12s 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I first played PB in the summer of 1971 as a 9 year old because several customers from the bank, where my father was an analyst, were too hung over to make their tee times. That was the case the next couple of years as well.  And I have played there occasionally over the years, including a couple days last summer just after the 12th and 8th reopened.  The course I remember from the early 70s would probably put it slightly above CPC.  However, the current course is no longer worthy of CPC love.  The bunkers have been Palmerized--compare the look to any high end Palmer course from the past 30 years.  And the character of the 8th, 11th, and 13th greens has been completely ruined.  There is slope, but the slopes are flat without any internal contour.  A former great feature was lots of subtle internal contours.  I cannot remember ever having had a straight putt longer than 10 feet in ally rounds there.  Today, the eventual winner had a 30 foot downhill putt on the 8th that might not have broken even an inch!  At least the 8th has a compelling approach shot.  With the 13th, the new green would be very much at home on a Weiskopf course.  Previously, the 13th might have been the trickiest green with lots of little contours hidden in the slopey green.  Years ago, Carl Welty used an electronic level with his student Mark Weibe in the Tour Championiship and found slope variations almost every square 3 feet that he measured.  Now it is one flat back to front right to left green.

[cary lichtenstein]

I've played Pebble 100 times over 25 years, I've played Cypress 4 times over the same span. I wish I had played Cypress the same number of times and I could pontificate as to which one is better. Suffice it to say, the tee shot at 7 and the 2nd shot at 8 are my 2 favorites, ditto the tee shot at 15 at Cypress. I won't venture an opinion as to which one is better, both are a joy to play, Spyglass, I've played 25 times, it is harder.

[Alex Miller]

There is absolutely a ton that is "right" or "great" about both courses. I think that if one were to chalk everything that could be subjectively judged about the courses together and call it a wash that could be fine, but there is one clear and stark difference in what CPS presents vs PB... green contours.


Pebble's greens are small, and that is fine. What they also are defined by is generally having some slope, maybe a 2nd section created by more tilt in the middle, but mostly there are slopes coming off flanking bunkers, perhaps built up by sand over the years. Again, it's good and presents a challenge. It certainly doesn't get in the way of enjoying the spectacular land, views, and shots around Pebble, but it's also a relatively one dimensional feature that you encounter at every hole there. In no way does it preclude the course from being one of the best in the world.


Cypress's greens do not follow this formula. While there are a couple relatively flat or singularly sloped greens (7, 16) they are sparse and are more of a contrast to the others than anything. Though I'm sure 7 could be enlarged and be better for it. The rest of the greens at CPC are unsurprisingly wonderful dynamic Mackenzies that are rightfully revered. All sorts of slopes, strategies, tilts. Some rate green contours as more important in determining what they like about a golf course, and I am absolutely one of them. But it's likely that this would get lost in a high level comparison of the courses because it's easy to get caught up in the stunning setting of both courses.

[Buck Wolter]

Andy Johnson on today's Shotgun Start pod has a pretty brutal takedown of Pebble Beach Company's stewardship of Pebble Beach and how poorly the course was presented this week (including but not limited to the ridiculous fairway width on 8. Also makes some interesting points about how the women's game is the most interesting to test good architecture if presented correctly (which he believes PB was not). Starts about the 17 minute mark if you aren't into typical SGS frivolity.


edit- replaced emoji with 8

[Matt Schoolfield]

Look, the only way we're really going to be able to settle this discussion is if someone kindly invites me to play each course a few dozen times, so I can see how they both play throughout the seasons. After I've finished that, we can all meet up at Alfredo's Cantina and I'll let you all know which one is better. 

Until then, I'll probably be at Pacific Grove (or Monterey Pines). 

[Jim_Coleman]

    Those of us lucky enough to spend time at Casa de Campo like to compare Teeth of the Dog to Pebble. Needless to say we come with a bias, but the argument goes that the ocean holes are all great, with Pebble’s 8th  being the best, but the Teeth’s group of 7 being as good as Pebble’s group of ocean holes. And the argument goes that the Teeth’s inland holes are are as good as or better than Pebble’s. I’m pretty sure Tim Doak once called the Teeth’s par 3’s the best set in the world, so we’ve got that going for us. I also think Tom gave both courses a 9, but I could be wrong about that.
   

[Kalen Braley]

I think its a legit question, and if the roles were reversed as stated (Pebble the exclusive course & CPC the high end public) I suspect this would very well be the case.

But given they've both more-or-less been in the top 10 courses in the world for decades now, seems a bit like trying to figure which of two super hot & utterly spectacular women is best...where one is a brunette and the other a red head.

P.S.  IIRC, our very own dearly departed Sir Huntley once said if he only had one round left...it would be Pebble.

[Tim Leahy]

Look, the only way we're really going to be able to settle this discussion is if someone kindly invites me to play each course a few dozen times, so I can see how they both play throughout the seasons. After I've finished that, we can all meet up at Alfredo's Cantina and I'll let you all know which one is better. 

Until then, I'll probably be at Pacific Grove (or Monterey Pines). 

I agree that the only way to get more involved in the discussion is for GCA to hold another event like the King's Putter at both courses. I missed the last one because I lived too close, 200 miles, and was bumped by an outsider. I am sure TD or someone has the connections to set that up.  So just post a signup post here and I am sure regardless of price it will fill up and promote many future educated discussions.

[David Kelly]

I first played PB in the summer of 1971 as a 9 year old because several customers from the bank, where my father was an analyst, were too hung over to make their tee times. That was the case the next couple of years as well.  And I have played there occasionally over the years, including a couple days last summer just after the 12th and 8th reopened.  The course I remember from the early 70s would probably put it slightly above CPC.  However, the current course is no longer worthy of CPC love.  The bunkers have been Palmerized--compare the look to any high end Palmer course from the past 30 years.  And the character of the 8th, 11th, and 13th greens has been completely ruined.  There is slope, but the slopes are flat without any internal contour.  A former great feature was lots of subtle internal contours.  I cannot remember ever having had a straight putt longer than 10 feet in ally rounds there.  Today, the eventual winner had a 30 foot downhill putt on the 8th that might not have broken even an inch!  At least the 8th has a compelling approach shot.  With the 13th, the new green would be very much at home on a Weiskopf course.  Previously, the 13th might have been the trickiest green with lots of little contours hidden in the slopey green.  Years ago, Carl Welty used an electronic level with his student Mark Weibe in the Tour Championiship and found slope variations almost every square 3 feet that he measured.  Now it is one flat back to front right to left green.

I agree with this as PB definitely has an homogenized feel to it now compared to when I first played it in the late 70s and the flattening of the greens was disappointing.  That plus the extreme retail experience at PB places CP above it for me although both are, of course, all world.


Would love to see PB bring back this look, though.
7 - https://www.pebblebeach.com/content/uploads/ch-4-19-1.jpg
17 - https://www.pebblebeach.com/content/uploads/ch-4-22-rgb.jpg