[Mike_Young]

“ In Washington DC, at a Metro Station, on a cold January morning in 2007, a man with a violin played six Bach pieces for about 45 minutes. During that time, approximately 2000 people went through the station, most of them on their way to work.After about four minutes, a middle-aged man noticed that there was a musician playing. He slowed his pace and stopped for a few seconds, and then he hurried on to meet his schedule.About four minutes later, the violinist received his first dollar. A woman threw money in the hat and, without stopping, continued to walk.At six minutes, a young man leaned against the wall to listen to him, then looked at his watch and started to walk again.At ten minutes, a three-year old boy stopped, but his mother tugged him along hurriedly. The kid stopped to look at the violinist again, but the mother pushed hard and the child continued to walk, turning his head the whole time. This action was repeated by several other children, but every parent - without exception - forced their children to move on quickly.At forty-five minutes: The musician played continuously. Only six people stopped and listened for a short while. About twenty gave money but continued to walk at their normal pace. The man collected a total of $32.After one hour:He finished playing and silence took over. No one noticed and no one applauded. There was no recognition at all.No one knew this, but the violinist was Joshua Bell, one of the greatest musicians in the world. He played one of the most intricate pieces ever written, with a violin worth $3.5 million dollars. Two days before, Joshua Bell sold-out a theater in Boston where the seats averaged $100 each to sit and listen to him play the same music.This is a true story. Joshua Bell, playing incognito in the D.C. Metro Station, was organized by the Washington Post as part of a social experiment about perception, taste and people’s priorities.This experiment raised several questions:In a common-place environment, at an inappropriate hour, do we perceive beauty?If so, do we stop to appreciate it?Do we recognize talent in an unexpected context?One possible conclusion reached from this experiment could be this:If we do not have a moment to stop and listen to one of the best musicians in the world, playing some of the finest music ever written, with one of the most beautiful instruments ever made…

[John Kavanaugh]

Do you think the reaction would be any different if it were a super model showing her breasts?

[Tom_Doak]

Good morning Mike.


Are you sure you're asking the question you think you're asking?


The piece you've quoted from assumes that Joshua Bell is a proven commodity as one of the greatest musicians in the world, and it's just that most people can't hear it for themselves.  They need an expert to verify it and tell them he's the best.


So how does that relate to golf courses exactly?  If a course is unappreciated by the average golfer, that doesn't mean it's not great, because the average guy needs to be told what to think.  But if it's also overlooked by the experts, then where's the proof that it's really great?


A similar analogy to the news story posted would be if players were unimpressed by an old Tillinghast design.


Or, are you arguing that Joshua Bell is really not discernibly better than a really good street musician, and pronouncing him "great" is elitist and unsupported by a blind sound check?

[Charlie Goerges]

It’s a statement about society.


“Sir, there was a man playing beautiful music in the metro.”


“Do I look like I give a shit? You’re fired. Take your things and go.”

[Bruce Katona]

JK:  While not exactly the correct analogy, your response is 100% on point..........and she my not have needed to be a supermodel.

[Kalen Braley]

I think the story is certainly plausible, Joshua seems to be an accomplished violinist and could very well be considered world class based on a few bios I read.

However, the explanation for the vastly different reaction could simply be the group of subway riders didn't value his skills the same as those willing to pay $100 per seat.  And its not like we don't see same when it comes to golf courses, with the vast masses being perfectly content to play their local courses and unwilling to travel and pay $$$$ for high end stuff.

The answer to the question is also simple...we perceive beauty in a very personal way. My wife and I bumped into a very talented street performer years ago in Seattle.  Enjoyed his music for 1/2 hour or so, left a nice donation, and bought his CD which I still have and listen to years later.

[Mike Hendren]

For the vast majority a talented street musician is “good enough.”  Any mastery beyond that threshold is wasted on the listener. Analogous to the law of diminishing returns if you will.  My threshold for golf course architecture has evolved to this:  Is the course good enough?  Subjective I admit but in my stint as a rater and other travels I rarely fell in love with the top 100 this or that.  I was far more content with the likes of Lulu, CC of Troy, Huntercombe and Forsgate. Plenty good enough.


As for the moderns, Fazio takes a lot of heat on the site but most of his work is arguably good enough.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

I'd certainly agree on that last point. 

On a side note, how many raters would continue being such if they were paying full boat on all those top notch courses they play?

[Mike Hendren]

That’s not to say I don’t mind a dose of genius every now and then. I admire and am grateful to those who aspire(d) to greatness.

[Ben Malach]

I travel to see golf courses all the time. The number of people playing great golf courses that don't understand them is probably  90/10. Happy to be playing golf vs really getting it. This is similar to other media or experiences in my opinion. A majority of people look for a convenient experience that provides good perceived value. 


If we looked at the tee sheet of a good daily fee course a majority of the golfers are there to just play golf. Yes, having a good course matters to them but they really don't understand the how or the why this course is better than the others they could play. It is the little things that matter to them. Like, was the person that checked me in kind to me? Can I find my golf ball? Are the greens and fairways playable?



Honestly, this was one of the biggest things I learned from getting to sit behind the desk at The Fields Club for a few weekends and evenings during my time there this spring.  As I got to see the clients that make simple golf work. As the majority of the golfers, there were just happy to be playing. Occasionally we would get a group that had heard about the club on the Fried Egg or through their friends in an NLU nest. But, even from this group, they were following a leader. They really didn't try to engage in the work of what makes this experience different than the golf course down the road. They would normally parrot a few lines from their dear leaders and then smile as they were buying a few hats.


Then about once or twice a day I would have a group come in after their round to truly talk about the golf course and those were always the most interesting interactions of the day. As I found everyone truly has their own vocabulary for the subject of golf architecture. It was cool to hear that as I kind of get into a rut with the words I use to describe features and the way a routing works. So it was awesome to watch Ashley Young engage with them on the subject.


Now, I would say there is a similar experience with club golfers but because there is not an active economic choice in where they play it is harder to parse. Although, it's normally over a cup of coffee with a super or a club pro. That it comes out as a group of members will be actively against a feature or part of the golf course that is truly special or unique and they have just joined at club "x" because it was the thing to do for them for one reason or another. They still pay the bill they are still there to enjoy the game but because they have an ownership interest they express their lack of understanding in a different way. That's why it is important that the 10% that really care and get it are aggressive in the pursuit of the positions that can have an impact on the course.

[Ally Mcintosh]

He would have had an audience gather in Dublin.


That aside, it was deliberately set in a location where people are in a hurry and walking past. Could anyone identify a great golf course solely from the tee shot on the first?

[Tim Martin]

The piece you've quoted from assumes that Joshua Bell is a proven commodity as one of the greatest musicians in the world, and it's just that most people can't hear it for themselves.  They need an expert to verify it and tell them he's the best.

So how does that relate to golf courses exactly?  If a course is unappreciated by the average golfer, that doesn't mean it's not great, because the average guy needs to be told what to think.  But if it's also overlooked by the experts, then where's the proof that it's really great?

Tom-This thread and your post bring to mind Glens Falls CC which is currently in the Golf Magazine U.S. Top 100 and the GolfWeek Top 100 Classic lists. I know that prior to your visit in 2014 and subsequent 2016 Confidential Guide rating of 8(Ran gave it 7) not many people were clamoring to see the golf course let alone having heard of it. I believe that you were the expert that made a lot of people seek it out and I would think there are other examples of a course hiding in plain sight before receiving high marks in the CG or in a thread on this discussion group. The pro told me ten years ago nobody from out of town was interested and now international travelers are seeking it out. The expert’s definitely have sway!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mike,

I'd certainly agree on that last point. 

On a side note, how many raters would continue being such if they were paying full boat on all those top notch courses they play?

Only the ones that could afford it. Then the panels become more elitist.

[Ira Fishman]

He would have had an audience gather in Dublin.


That aside, it was deliberately set in a location where people are in a hurry and walking past. Could anyone identify a great golf course solely from the tee shot on the first?

Ally,


I had the same reaction, including the point about Dublin (true of New Orleans as well)—definitely not in DC where I have lived for 40+ years.


But then I thought about your first hole question, and it definitely makes your point. Of the great courses that I have had the privilege of playing, perhaps three had first holes that “told” me that they would be great: St. George’s Hill, Yale, and Pasatiempo. Fwiw, none of my top five favorites are on that list.


Ira

[Joe_Tucholski]

10 years ago the same post was made.  I won't quote my response.  But I had just seen Joshua Bell.  Could tell you he was good but don't think I could have distinguished him from any of the others playing violin on the stage. 

Definitely think that's the case with most people, including myself, with regards to great golf courses.  I'm perfectly content living with the fact that I won't "know" great but will always be blissfully happy with good that touches something within me.

[Ken Moum]

I'm reminded of an AL Hirt quote.  Criticized for being too "commercial, " he supposedly said,  "I can't feed eight kids catering to people who claim to understand Thelonius Monk."


Architecture that's inaccessible to regular golfers is like classical music and progressive jazz. It may be too much work to be enjoyable.


My dad was a jazz saxophonist who was a Bird Parker fan, so I have some knowledge.


And I've been a single-digit golfer.


But I really don't "get" Miles Davis and playing Prairie Dunes and Royal Dornoch is so demanding I find it hard to appreciate them.

[Mike_Young]

Good morning Mike.


Are you sure you're asking the question you think you're asking?


The piece you've quoted from assumes that Joshua Bell is a proven commodity as one of the greatest musicians in the world, and it's just that most people can't hear it for themselves.  They need an expert to verify it and tell them he's the best.


So how does that relate to golf courses exactly?  If a course is unappreciated by the average golfer, that doesn't mean it's not great, because the average guy needs to be told what to think.  But if it's also overlooked by the experts, then where's the proof that it's really great?


A similar analogy to the news story posted would be if players were unimpressed by an old Tillinghast design.


Or, are you arguing that Joshua Bell is really not discernibly better than a really good street musician, and pronouncing him "great" is elitist and unsupported by a blind sound check?

TD,When I read it, I think of how most people walking by Joshua Bell have no idea if the music is great or average.  But if someone were there to tell them it was great music then they would decide it was.  I see so many small town golf courses that are good but no one has told anyone they were.  I think even Crystal Downs was like that until you began to talk about it.  Often will run across a small town course and you visualize what it could be if it had the maintenance budget which is about the same as putting a musician in a big time recording studio with a good producer... 

[Tom_Doak]

I see so many small town golf courses that are good but no one has told anyone they were.  I think even Crystal Downs was like that until you began to talk about it. 

Yes, Crystal Downs was kind of like that.  I've heard a bunch of stories from people whose dads used to come up and play it in the 60s and 70s -- all of them appreciated it, but almost none of them would have defined it as "great".  If you had polled the membership in 1982, I doubt that 10% would have said it was a top-100 course.[size=78%]  [/size]

[Tom_Doak]

Architecture that's inaccessible to regular golfers is like classical music and progressive jazz. It may be too much work to be enjoyable.


But I really don't "get" Miles Davis and playing Prairie Dunes and Royal Dornoch is so demanding I find it hard to appreciate them.

I don't entirely understand why people think good architecture is so hard to recognize or appreciate.  Holes that have interesting features and interesting greens are pretty easy to recognize, even if you can't hit the shot they require . . . which is a fallacy, because the same contour that makes the green interesting for a great player's second shot, will probably also make it interesting for my pitch or chip.


I do understand your point that many "great" courses are relentless in their challenge and thus beyond the capability of many golfers to enjoy their game.

[Ken Moum]

I do understand your point that many "great" courses are relentless in their challenge and thus beyond the capability of many golfers to enjoy their game.

That's what I was trying to say.


PD and RDC are certainly great but PD in particular has such a high penalty for misses that it's hard to enjoy.


Worked the NCAA National Championship there and the number of provisional balls hit was astonishing.  One kid shot 38-54.

[Michael Moore]

I can walk to South Portland Municipal in five minutes. It’s definitely a “commonplace environment” in an “unexpected context”. I’ve tried, you can’t find beauty there.

[Sean_A]

As with most things in life, great is over-rated. Not only because good, unusual, interesting, etc are often good enough, but because the line between great and not great is invisible most of the time. It's a rarity for greatness to stand out as obviously so.

Ciao

[Mike Nuzzo]

Good morning Mike.


Are you sure you're asking the question you think you're asking?


The piece you've quoted from assumes that Joshua Bell is a proven commodity as one of the greatest musicians in the world, and it's just that most people can't hear it for themselves.  They need an expert to verify it and tell them he's the best.


So how does that relate to golf courses exactly?  If a course is unappreciated by the average golfer, that doesn't mean it's not great, because the average guy needs to be told what to think.  But if it's also overlooked by the experts, then where's the proof that it's really great?


A similar analogy to the news story posted would be if players were unimpressed by an old Tillinghast design.


Or, are you arguing that Joshua Bell is really not discernibly better than a really good street musician, and pronouncing him "great" is elitist and unsupported by a blind sound check?

TD,When I read it, I think of how most people walking by Joshua Bell have no idea if the music is great or average.  But if someone were there to tell them it was great music then they would decide it was.  I see so many small town golf courses that are good but no one has told anyone they were.  I think even Crystal Downs was like that until you began to talk about it.  Often will run across a small town course and you visualize what it could be if it had the maintenance budget which is about the same as putting a musician in a big time recording studio with a good producer...

Hi Mike
Do you have any examples you can share?
Of what you are considering.
Of courses that would be great with better maintenance or if you told someone it was.
Or of courses that have benefitted from the Treehouse saying a course is great when it really isn't.
Peace

[jeffwarne]

I see so many small town golf courses that are good but no one has told anyone they were.  I think even Crystal Downs was like that until you began to talk about it. 

Yes, Crystal Downs was kind of like that.  I've heard a bunch of stories from people whose dads used to come up and play it in the 60s and 70s -- all of them appreciated it, but almost none of them would have defined it as "great".  If you had polled the membership in 1982, I doubt that 10% would have said it was a top-100 course.[size=78%]  [/size]

Palmetto circa 1978 (when I first playied it in a HS event until about-1990.
I could barely drag someone from Augusta to play it.
Meanwhile  there were 4-5 complete shite development courses in the area that got far more buzz and respect(all failing or failed now)
Aiken GC a similar story.to Palmetto

[JMEvensky]

I'm reminded of an AL Hirt quote.  Criticized for being too "commercial, " he supposedly said,  "I can't feed eight kids catering to people who claim to understand Thelonius Monk."


Architecture that's inaccessible to regular golfers is like classical music and progressive jazz. It may be too much work to be enjoyable.


My dad was a jazz saxophonist who was a Bird Parker fan, so I have some knowledge.


And I've been a single-digit golfer.


But I really don't "get" Miles Davis and playing Prairie Dunes and Royal Dornoch is so demanding I find it hard to appreciate them.

Somewhere Peter Pallotta is smiling.

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