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Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2023, 09:08:39 PM »
Personally, I think pre shoot routines slow play considerably. I see it every day.


Personally, I was given 4 senses...sight is one of them. I trust my eyes more than my feet to tell me what I am looking at.


Personally, I think Aimpoint is a fad and nothing more.  Do you fly fish? Do you see these young guys with huge backpacks with extra fly rods and long handled nets sticking out of them?  They don't catch anymore fish than the guy with a simple vest and one box of flies.  It's a ridiculous FAD designed to suck more money out of your pocket!  Just like APE is a fad designed to put more money in your local club pro's pocket.


If you think you can tell if there's 1 percent slope from a 2 percent slope you're smoking crack.
We are no longer a country of laws.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2023, 09:17:58 PM »
Personally, I was given 4 senses...sight is one of them. I trust my eyes more than my feet to tell me what I am looking at.
Your eyes lie to you all the time.

Personally, I think Aimpoint is a fad and nothing more.
It's been over a decade. It's only getting more popular. People have been using their feet to feel the slope for 100+ years; AimPoint Express just formalizes it and applies math to it.

Just like APE is a fad designed to put more money in your local club pro's pocket.

Oh brother.

If you think you can tell if there's 1 percent slope from a 2 percent slope you're smoking crack.
You're incredibly wrong.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2023, 09:44:39 PM »
And then there are the hundreds of years of history where the majority of golfers have got round quite safely and quite well without having a caddy. We also allow steel shafted clubs, graphite shafted clubs, clubheads made of god knows what and how many years of history do they have?
There's a difference between advancing something and taking something away. What you're proposing isn't really akin to a changing material, but rather… doing away with the shaft altogether or something.
If you did away with the golf shaft there would be no golf club.  If you did away with the caddie...how would the game change?


Millions of recreational golfers, club competitors, even college players play without caddies.  If they changed Rule 10.2a and eliminated the words "other than your caddie" and gave golfers 1 or even 3 years notice, there would be a big kerfuffle in the media and players would complain but in the end I doubt any aspect of the professional game would suffer for the spectators and viewers - which is the reason PROFESSIONAL golf exists.  Maybe in the short run the stroke average would rise by a stroke or even two but that would be imperceptible to viewers.  MLB has shown this season with the pitch clock that players can adapt very quickly to major rule changes.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2023, 09:53:42 PM »
If you did away with the golf shaft there would be no golf club.  If you did away with the caddie...how would the game change?
You missed the point.

And they're not going to make a rule that the caddie can literally only carry the bag, so time spent discussing it is time wasted, IMO.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2023, 10:10:00 PM »
Personally, I think pre shoot routines slow play considerably. I see it every day.


Personally, I was given 4 senses...sight is one of them. I trust my eyes more than my feet to tell me what I am looking at.


Personally, I think Aimpoint is a fad and nothing more.  Do you fly fish? Do you see these young guys with huge backpacks with extra fly rods and long handled nets sticking out of them?  They don't catch anymore fish than the guy with a simple vest and one box of flies.  It's a ridiculous FAD designed to suck more money out of your pocket!  Just like APE is a fad designed to put more money in your local club pro's pocket.


If you think you can tell if there's 1 percent slope from a 2 percent slope you're smoking crack.


Pre shot routines don’t create slow play if done properly. My group plays in 3:00 to 3:20 walking.


I know I can can tell 1 degree from 2 degrees. It takes some practice. Less than 1 degree I couldn’t very well. There is more to it than that. You need to be able to determine stimp steep, uphill, downhill….. I stopped doing it before the straddling the line rule changed.


Fad to take money from my pocket? My money, fun class, enjoyed myself, learned something. Money well spent.


Erik,
Where is the math in the process? You feel the degree of slope. That gives you the number of fingers. You estimate the speed, adjust the distance between your hand and eye to determine your aimpoint. We’re is the math? I never did the original aimpoint but I know you needed a chart for that.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2023, 10:16:47 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2023, 10:33:00 PM »
Erik,
Where is the math in the process? You feel the degree of slope. That gives you the number of fingers. You estimate the speed, adjust the distance between your hand and eye to determine your aimpoint. We’re is the math? I never did the original aimpoint but I know you needed a chart for that.
As you should know, I'm ignoring you and Tim.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2023, 11:40:44 PM »
Erik,
Where is the math in the process? You feel the degree of slope. That gives you the number of fingers. You estimate the speed, adjust the distance between your hand and eye to determine your aimpoint. We’re is the math? I never did the original aimpoint but I know you needed a chart for that.
As you should know, I'm ignoring you and Tim.


You’re not doing a good job. “It’s the perfect balance of simplicity and accuracy by giving a dependable read using ONE factor.”  It’s a simple method if you put the time into learning to feel the degree of slope. It’s not an exact science just like using your eyes.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2023, 11:45:52 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2023, 11:41:48 PM »
Your not doing a good job. “It’s the perfect balance of simplicity and accuracy by giving a dependable read using ONE factor.”  It’s a simple method if you put the time into learning to feel the degree of slope. It’s not an exact science just like using your eyes.
As you should know, I'm ignoring you and Tim.

Also, it's "you're."
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2023, 11:50:36 PM »
Your not doing a good job. “It’s the perfect balance of simplicity and accuracy by giving a dependable read using ONE factor.”  It’s a simple method if you put the time into learning to feel the degree of slope. It’s not an exact science just like using your eyes.
As you should know, I'm ignoring you and Tim.

Also, it's "you're."


Thanks, there are many more…..
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2023, 07:21:49 AM »
Personally, I think pre shoot routines slow play considerably. I see it every day.


Personally, I was given 4 senses...sight is one of them. I trust my eyes more than my feet to tell me what I am looking at.


Personally, I think Aimpoint is a fad and nothing more.  Do you fly fish? Do you see these young guys with huge backpacks with extra fly rods and long handled nets sticking out of them?  They don't catch anymore fish than the guy with a simple vest and one box of flies.  It's a ridiculous FAD designed to suck more money out of your pocket!  Just like APE is a fad designed to put more money in your local club pro's pocket.


If you think you can tell if there's 1 percent slope from a 2 percent slope you're smoking crack.


I think you would be shocked at how easy it is to accurately distinguish degrees of slope with your feet. I thought that would be difficult; it took less than an hour on the practice green with a digital level set to percent, rather than degrees.  Periodically, I’ll use an app on my phone to check myself, but that was perhaps the easiest part of learning AimPoint.  It turns out our feet are REALLY at reading slope, which is how we are able to walk in a straight line on sloped sidewalks without using our eyes or thinking about it.


And thanks for the “smoking crack” comment. I’ve never smoked crack, so it’s nice to know what the experience would be like without having to actually do it.  Sort of like your knowledge AimPoint, I suppose…
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2023, 08:09:58 AM »
Personally, I think pre shoot routines slow play considerably.


Except perhaps if they result in the ball getting in the hole with less shots?


This Jury's out. I'm wondering how much of the benefit to those who like using Aimpoint is as a result of being more confident they have the right read?  Of course it wouldn't help confidence if it was consistently the wrong read!


I would have thought by now it would be possible to show a net reduction (or not) in the no of putts per round taken, before and AFTER someone adopts this system?  There's a lot of kids out there monitoring their actual stats.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2023, 08:27:58 AM »
No caddies on the green? :)
atb

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2023, 09:25:00 AM »
Personally, I was given 4 senses...


Which ones are you missing?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2023, 10:40:40 AM »
Excellent thread gents.

While I certainly don't doubt AimPoint is helpful, still seems to be pretty light so far in the evidence category.  Wouldn't think it would be that tough to conduct a simple double blind study to see if people really could judge between 1 and 2 degrees of slope just with their feet.  It could include walking on greens they never been on (nor seen anyone putting on) and wearing blind folds.

P.S. Some of these comments remind me of the average joe who is convinced they regularly hit 225-230 off the tee, yet only manage 200-210 half the time at best.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2023, 11:11:56 AM »
And then there are the hundreds of years of history where the majority of golfers have got round quite safely and quite well without having a caddy. We also allow steel shafted clubs, graphite shafted clubs, clubheads made of god knows what and how many years of history do they have?
There's a difference between advancing something and taking something away. What you're proposing isn't really akin to a changing material, but rather… doing away with the shaft altogether or something.



Erik


There are very many on here who don't consider the changes in golf equipment to be "advances" and would happily have a roll back and it would appear that the powers that be agree with that, at least as far as the ball is concerned. The point however is that there has always been change whether that be stopping something or allowing something. In the greater scheme of things it wouldn't be that big a change and would, IMO, make watching the professional game less frustrating and hopefully quicker as well.


Niall

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2023, 11:49:38 AM »
Personally, I think pre shoot routines slow play considerably. I see it every day.


Personally, I was given 4 senses...sight is one of them. I trust my eyes more than my feet to tell me what I am looking at.


Personally, I think Aimpoint is a fad and nothing more.  Do you fly fish? Do you see these young guys with huge backpacks with extra fly rods and long handled nets sticking out of them?  They don't catch anymore fish than the guy with a simple vest and one box of flies.  It's a ridiculous FAD designed to suck more money out of your pocket!  Just like APE is a fad designed to put more money in your local club pro's pocket.


If you think you can tell if there's 1 percent slope from a 2 percent slope you're smoking crack.


I think you would be shocked at how easy it is to accurately distinguish degrees of slope with your feet. I thought that would be difficult; it took less than an hour on the practice green with a digital level set to percent, rather than degrees.  Periodically, I’ll use an app on my phone to check myself, but that was perhaps the easiest part of learning AimPoint.  It turns out our feet are REALLY at reading slope, which is how we are able to walk in a straight line on sloped sidewalks without using our eyes or thinking about it.


And thanks for the “smoking crack” comment. I’ve never smoked crack, so it’s nice to know what the experience would be like without having to actually do it.  Sort of like your knowledge AimPoint, I suppose…


AG,
How do you do when it’s less than 1%?  That’s where I just couldn’t feel it.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2023, 12:15:45 PM »
P.S. Some of these comments remind me of the average joe who is convinced they regularly hit 225-230 off the tee, yet only manage 200-210 half the time at best.
Was at a golf shop about three weeks ago looking over the used drivers and two late teens/early twenties guys came in and were looking at the rack.
The first kid says, "I just want something I can carry 300 yards"
and the second kid says, "Dude, even I don't carry the ball that far."
"How far do you carry it?"
"....280-290".
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2023, 12:30:21 PM »
I hereby decree Erik J. Barzeski the "Angriest Man in Golf."
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2023, 12:46:58 PM »
I hereby decree Erik J. Barzeski the "Angriest Man in Golf."

;D


« Last Edit: July 06, 2023, 01:41:42 PM by Tim Martin »

Steve Wilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2023, 12:50:50 PM »
Are you ever sorry that you threw the first dinner roll at the Drones Club?


Food fights are like wars, easy to start and hard to end.
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2023, 01:04:41 PM »
I hereby decree Erik J. Barzeski the "Angriest Man in Golf."


Sarge-You better tread lightly or Erik will “ignore” you. ;D


Erik needs to learn to not be so condescending in his replies....
« Last Edit: July 06, 2023, 01:18:02 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Jeff Segol

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2023, 02:54:20 PM »
Man, I hope I never walk on some of your guys lawns. I use the original AimPoint, because I understand how to read the charts (AME was developed for those who couldn't figure out how to read them). I believe it helps me, in two areas. First, I'm pretty sure that by using it, I play more break than if I just eyeballed it. Pelz demonstrated pretty conclusively years ago that most golfers don't play enough break, and end up messing up their strokes as a result. Second, once I've looked at the chart and picked my target based on what it says, I forget about the read and just concentrate on making a good stroke. My brain is less cluttered, and I believe I putt better as a result. So much of the game is mental, anything that gives you confidence is good.


The way to address slow play is to address slow play. In our last tournament at Baylands, my foursome all got penalized a shot, because we were more than 15 minutes behind the group in front, and played in more than 4:15. That happened because one of the players had the worst reverse pivot swing I've ever seen, and lost a ball on almost every hole. I ID'd him to the tournament director afterwards, just to say I didn't want to be paired with him again. For casual play, groups that play too slow should be kicked off the course. That's the way to get faster play, and still allow people who are still trying to improve to figure out ways to shoot a better score. I go fast between shots, and pull clubs quickly, so that I'm still in position if I want to spend a bit of extra time on the green. I should have the right to do that, as long as I keep up.


As far as the pros go, given how much money they're playing for, I'm not going to criticize what they're doing, as long as they keep up with the group in front. What they do shouldn't influence the rest of us, IMHO.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2023, 03:35:58 PM »
"The way to address slow play is to [/size]address slow play. [/color][/size]In our last tournament at Baylands, my foursome all got penalized a shot, because we were more than 15 minutes behind the group in front, and played in more than 4:15. That happened because one of the players had the worst reverse pivot swing I've ever seen, and lost a ball on almost every hole. I ID'd him to the tournament director afterwards, just to say I didn't want to be paired with him again. For casual play, groups that play too slow should be kicked off the course. That's the way to get faster play, and still allow people who are still trying to improve to figure out ways to shoot a better score. I go fast between shots, and pull clubs quickly, so that I'm still in position if I want to spend a bit of extra time on the green. I should have the right to do that, as long as I keep up."[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]That's a tough position to be in for you and the other guy. He just a bad player. Probably shouldn't be in tournaments until he gets player. 3 minutes looking tee shot on 9 holes and you've lost half and hour.[/color]
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2023, 06:20:09 PM »
Personally, I think pre shoot routines slow play considerably. I see it every day.


Personally, I was given 4 senses...sight is one of them. I trust my eyes more than my feet to tell me what I am looking at.


Personally, I think Aimpoint is a fad and nothing more.  Do you fly fish? Do you see these young guys with huge backpacks with extra fly rods and long handled nets sticking out of them?  They don't catch anymore fish than the guy with a simple vest and one box of flies.  It's a ridiculous FAD designed to suck more money out of your pocket!  Just like APE is a fad designed to put more money in your local club pro's pocket.


If you think you can tell if there's 1 percent slope from a 2 percent slope you're smoking crack.


I think you would be shocked at how easy it is to accurately distinguish degrees of slope with your feet. I thought that would be difficult; it took less than an hour on the practice green with a digital level set to percent, rather than degrees.  Periodically, I’ll use an app on my phone to check myself, but that was perhaps the easiest part of learning AimPoint.  It turns out our feet are REALLY at reading slope, which is how we are able to walk in a straight line on sloped sidewalks without using our eyes or thinking about it.


And thanks for the “smoking crack” comment. I’ve never smoked crack, so it’s nice to know what the experience would be like without having to actually do it.  Sort of like your knowledge AimPoint, I suppose…


AG,
How do you do when it’s less than 1%?  That’s where I just couldn’t feel it.
I do use my little finger for half, but really it depends on the length of the putt.  If it's a long putt, I'm really just trying to get the speed right anyway, so that's not a big issue.  The AimPoint instructor I worked with walked me thru the way to deal with shorter putts without the use of fingers at all, and that has been really, really helpful for me.
My biggest issue nowadays, really, is my eyes.  After things really went bad, I worked with a sports vision specialist in the Duke Health network, and was told that I'd tend to miss putts to the side of my dominant eye anyway, which in my case is now extreme.  I was always left eye dominant, but now my right eye is nearly useless, so the issue is bigger.  When I have a makeable putt that goes left to right, I have to add a little bit of extra break to my read to compensate for that, and it's worked great.
I'm always amused by people who are completely confident of what they think they see on a green. 
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What's Up With Caddies Straddling
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2023, 06:43:40 PM »
No caddies on the green? :)
Who tends the flagstick?

Wouldn't think it would be that tough to conduct a simple double blind study to see if people really could judge between 1 and 2 degrees of slope just with their feet.
I see it every time I teach an AimPoint class. And it's not degrees, it's percent slope, so that's actually smaller (45° = 100% slope).


0% = 0°
1% = 0.57°
2% = 1.15°

My "test" for them is to get within 0.5% slope. They're almost all capable of doing it within about ten minutes.

In the greater scheme of things it wouldn't be that big a change and would, IMO, make watching the professional game less frustrating and hopefully quicker as well.
Caddies aren't going anywhere, so good luck with your crusade.

I hereby decree Erik J. Barzeski the "Angriest Man in Golf."
Joke's on you then. I'm one of the most even-tempered guy you're going to find. This shit's just golf. It's not that freaking important in the grand scheme of things.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.